A gift for HHO Skeptics!

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by repurplecirculation

Those formulas are just the standard textbook formulas in chemistry (assuming no losses and a perfect world) based on molar masses of ideal water at 1ATM 25deg C. By no means does this imply 100% conversion efficiency in the real world (why I specified that most are lucky to approach even 50% in traditional electrolysis). Just like in fusion or fission (atomic level) reactions, molecular reactions can have apparent violations of CoE (in reality, basic chemistry equations do not include every nuance that may be present in a reaction - e.g. energy trapped/released from a sympathetic vibrating lattice, spin conversions, magnetic bonds, etc.).

Except you are mixing chemistry with nuclear physics. Chemists generally ignore lattice vibration, spin conversion and magnetic bonds because they do not affect the outcome on a macro level in most situations as the ones we are discussing. I assure you that molecular level vibration, spin and magnetism, etc. , is important and is occurring during electrolysis and combustion. However, they cancel out statistically, so that we may ignore them in mass/molar calculations. On occasion, they do come into play. The difference in spin energy for para/ortho hydrogen has to be taken into account in the million pound fuel tanks used in space launch rockets. But, for the molar amounts we are talking about, it can be ignored.

Also, the other posters are correct in questioning your positive outcome. Check your ending states. The exhaust has to be in a gas phase and as such will not release as much energy as the exhaust in a liquid or solid phase.

[fuzzysig]

all the links are dead need to update

[oil pan 4]

The only link that was worth anything was the nasa link. The diluted HHO believers saw it as evidence HHO works. I see it as the best evidence that it does not work.
In the link nasa bottle fed an engine on a dyno hydrogen gas. At the most efficient ratio of hydrogen to air it only increased the engines fuel economy 3%.
The ratio of hydrogen to air was several cubic feet per second, vastly many more times the gas then a bank of HHO generators could produce let alone what a car alternator could power.

That right there gives you everything you need to know about HHO generators and why they don't work.
First the hydrogen gas came from a bottle in huge amounts that you could never get from an HHO generator.
The engine didn't have to turn an alternator to make the hydrogen.
The fuel economy increase was only 3%, which can be achieved by adding just about any flammable gas to an engines intake air. Which is nothing special.

I wouldn't say hydrogen doesn't work, it just preforms as expected, as in no miracles.

To put things into perspective, adding a very elaborate and dangerous flammable gas induction system to a vehicles intake can net you up to 3%, but doing an alternator delete has been good for around 5% and in some cases up to a 10% fuel economy improvement.

[niky]

You could inject propane... (for diesels)... or simply run on it completely (for gasoline engines).

Given the price spread, you're looking at a huge drop in cents per mile.

[Isaac Zackary]

Hi all. I thought I'd try to resurrect a mythical unicorn.

Anyhow, although I do believe the HHO/Brown's gas concept of putting an electrolisis device on a vehicle ran by the alternator has always been a joke, I did think of one area where it possibly could improve efficiency. Of course someone would have to test it to find out if it's true or not.

My theory is this.

As I'm driving along in my 1985 VW diesel getting 50mph or better I realize that diesel engines get better fuel efficiency because of 1) the higher compression ratio and 2) lack of pumping losses through a partially closed throttle.

So when applying the number 2 principle to a gasoline powered engine we know that a gasoline won't run if it's too lean, which is why there's a throttle valve to limit air. If you could ignite the gasoline at any air/fuel ratio then the throttle valve could be eliminated and throttling would be regulated by means of changing the air/fuel ratio like in a diesel engine.

Well there are engines that can run on leaner air/fuel ratios, like the Hondas that run on a stratified charge. Also running a stronger induction ignition system along with bigger sparkplug gaps also helps in any car. Engine quench may help too.

BUT, what about adding another gas to help start and spread the combustion throughout the combustion chamber. Apparently hydrogen has great properties for this. 1) It ignites very easily, 2) it mixes with air very well and 3) it can burn at very low air/fuel ratios.

So the experiment would be to add a tank with water, electrodes, electrolytes and such to produce hydrogen and oxygen through electrolysis in order aid combustion in order to run an ajustable air/fuel ratio carburetor so that very lean, low power air/fuel ratios can be attained and the throttle, for the most part, be left wide open.

There are a few technical difficulties. Although at very lean air/fuel ratios the combustion temps should be low enough to avoid problems, as air/fuel ratios increase close to stoichiometric they can cause the engine to detonate. So there needs to be a way to go from super lean, to rich, with no in-between. Or simply keep air/fuel ratios extremely lean and add acceleration through something like an electric hybrid system.

There's also the question on how this would affect timing. Timing would need to be controlled by some other means than the normal intake manifold pressure sensing that is normally used. It would likely need to advance as the air/fuel ratio gets leaner.

Well, this was just an idea that passed through my head. No idea if it would work or not.

[oil pan 4]

In a diesel the tiny amount of hydrogen in the air is going to already to be burned off before the fuel is injected since the air in the cylinder is going to be heated to some where around 1,000'F.

With a diesel you could just run propane intake fumigation.
Its already proven to increase fuel economy by around 3% and reduce all the unwanted emissions like soot.
For a diesel HHO is a waste of time.

[pgfpro]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zackary

Hi all. I thought I'd try to resurrect a mythical unicorn.

Anyhow, although I do believe the HHO/Brown's gas concept of putting an electrolisis device on a vehicle ran by the alternator has always been a joke, I did think of one area where it possibly could improve efficiency. Of course someone would have to test it to find out if it's true or not.

My theory is this.

As I'm driving along in my 1985 VW diesel getting 50mph or better I realize that diesel engines get better fuel efficiency because of 1) the higher compression ratio and 2) lack of pumping losses through a partially closed throttle.

So when applying the number 2 principle to a gasoline powered engine we know that a gasoline won't run if it's too lean, which is why there's a throttle valve to limit air. If you could ignite the gasoline at any air/fuel ratio then the throttle valve could be eliminated and throttling would be regulated by means of changing the air/fuel ratio like in a diesel engine.

Well there are engines that can run on leaner air/fuel ratios, like the Hondas that run on a stratified charge. Also running a stronger induction ignition system along with bigger sparkplug gaps also helps in any car. Engine quench may help too.

BUT, what about adding another gas to help start and spread the combustion throughout the combustion chamber. Apparently hydrogen has great properties for this. 1) It ignites very easily, 2) it mixes with air very well and 3) it can burn at very low air/fuel ratios.

So the experiment would be to add a tank with water, electrodes, electrolytes and such to produce hydrogen and oxygen through electrolysis in order aid combustion in order to run an ajustable air/fuel ratio carburetor so that very lean, low power air/fuel ratios can be attained and the throttle, for the most part, be left wide open.

There are a few technical difficulties. Although at very lean air/fuel ratios the combustion temps should be low enough to avoid problems, as air/fuel ratios increase close to stoichiometric they can cause the engine to detonate. So there needs to be a way to go from super lean, to rich, with no in-between. Or simply keep air/fuel ratios extremely lean and add acceleration through something like an electric hybrid system.

There's also the question on how this would affect timing. Timing would need to be controlled by some other means than the normal intake manifold pressure sensing that is normally used. It would likely need to advance as the air/fuel ratio gets leaner.

Well, this was just an idea that passed through my head. No idea if it would work or not.

I like what your saying.

I would love to test this theory on my car. I hoping to acquire a HHO
on-board producer from a member here to test some ideas that have been talked about on this forum?

[Isaac Zackary]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

In a diesel the tiny amount of hydrogen in the air is going to already to be burned off before the fuel is injected since the air in the cylinder is going to be heated to some where around 1,000'F.

With a diesel you could just run propane intake fumigation.
Its already proven to increase fuel economy by around 3% and reduce all the unwanted emissions like soot.
For a diesel HHO is a waste of time.

I also see no benefit in using HHO in a diesel. You got me all wrong. I was talking about using it in a gasoline engine to try to help impart some of the attributes of a diesel to a gasoline engine.

But what's this about propane fumigation? Sounds like I need to start investigating it.

Originally Posted by pgfpro

I like what your saying.

I would love to test this theory on my car. I hoping to acquire a HHO
on-board producer from a member here to test some ideas that have been talked about on this forum?

I've thought about testing it in my 1972 Beetle. But I've got some other things I'm going to do first before I even think about doing it.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zackary

So the experiment would be to add a tank with water, electrodes, electrolytes and such to produce hydrogen and oxygen through electrolysis in order aid combustion in order to run an ajustable air/fuel ratio carburetor so that very lean, low power air/fuel ratios can be attained and the throttle, for the most part, be left wide open.

Where will the electricity come from to power the electrolysis.

Originally Posted by Isaac Zackary

Well, this was just an idea that passed through my head. No idea if it would work or not.

It won't. HHO is the equivalent of putting a wind turbine on top of your car to generate electricity to power the car.

In the case of HHO you are burning gasoline in a engine at 25% - 30% efficiency, to power an alternator and generate electricity at about 40-50% efficiency, to create hydrogen to burn in the car.

[oil pan 4]

You never heard of propane, natural gas or alcohol intake fumigation?
Well its pretty cool.
If you are looking for a slight MPG boost less soot and for the engine oil to stay cleaner then propane is the way to go.
Natural gas is for stationary applications or when high pressure natural gas for on road applications is available.
Alcohol fumigation also known as a hot shot system is more for boosting power.
Then there is also water mist injection.
Besides that everything you need to know about water injection is here:
Water injection - EcoModder