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Old 01-04-2008, 02:44 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Great advice... and I have to give you credit. You are pretty darn cool.

You guys probably have the debate every other week when someone new joins who doesn't exactly see things from your point of view.

I am not a eco enthusiast. I came here to try to understand the eco enthusiast point of view. So far, what I've learned, is that I am similar to some of you in different ways.

Some of you might push your cars to the limits for independence and security, so that you might get by for longer in times of shortage. I stock pile and stabilize gasoline for the same.

Some of you might do it so that you are prepared for emergencies. That is why I drive an SUV. That's also why I keep and bear arms, their ammunition supply, and the ability to increase that supply by many hundred.

Some of you might do it to clean up the environment. I care about the environment too. I recycle, and do what I can. Saving gasoline is simply not one of them.


Thank you, especially you, Metro. I'm impressed. I moderate a $70/year discussion forum, and I thought the civility that I see there was limited to pay-based forums. You all have proven me wrong, at least in that preconception.

Good luck to all of you in eco modding. I hope you do it to the fullest, and experience all the personal satisfaction and gain possible from such a venture. As you go about your lives, and continue making choices and decisions, and supporting causes that may effect others, please keep this in mind: Do not tread upon others, and you yourself will not be trod upon.

Please, keep an open mind, and a friendly attitude, and do not judge a man by what he drives. Ignorant, isn't the man who drives an excessive vehicle, but he who deems him ignorant for doing such.

God bless you all,

Over&Out.

-Don Easton (if that IS my real name....)

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Old 01-04-2008, 02:45 PM   #32 (permalink)
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My problem with the "free market" -- solutions are reactionary and sluggish to boot.... A solution to a pollution crisis won't come until enough people are dieing and now willing to pay for a solution... The free market lacks a critical feature humans do - long term foresight...

Here's a quote from elsewhere that articulates a little better...

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Seriously people, pick up some history books. Howard Zinn's would be a terrific start. We are immersed in and heading deeper toward what I would call 'soft fascism'. In other words a society ruled by corporations through puppet representatives with votes for sale - and the health care and oil industries are two of the top contributors.

Forget what you think you know about fascism, it doesn't have to come in the form of dictators like Hitler or Mussolini. It is a perversion of society where capitalism is allowed to run roughshod over the rights of the people in it with the assistance of the state. And contrary to what so many people think, the US was not built on unregulated capitalism, but rather a blending of socialism and capitalism - each kept in check. The Great Depression was the result of unchecked capitalism. Apparently the masses haven't learned that lesson.

And as I've always said... If we care not to regulate ourselves -- nature is more than happy to do it for us - we're just not going to like that :/

I hyper mile because when I ride my bike - it stinks enough as-is....
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Old 01-04-2008, 02:58 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonEaston View Post
I'm impressed. I moderate a $70/year discussion forum, and I thought the civility that I see there was limited to pay-based forums. You all have proven me wrong, at least in that preconception.
I experienced a similar thing just yesterday. Background: much of the traffic we've had at the site recently came about due to basjoos' Aerocivic - clearly an extreme expression of ecomodding if there ever was one.

Basjoos' thread has been picked up for discussion on a couple dozen car enthusiast forums, and I'd say the majority of them simply chucked insults, made snide remarks about workmanship, argued about aesthetics, dismissed his goals, and failed to see the big picture.

One forum (free, large membership base) stood out: the commenters (Nissan Z enthusiasts) acknowledged that while saving fuel wasn't their thing, they could sure appreciate the thought & effort that basjoos put into his project car and how successful it's been. I thought that was so cool, I registered to tell them! Definitely challenged my preconceptions based on what I'd seen on other speed/performance sites.

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Good luck to all of you in eco modding. I hope you do it to the fullest, and experience all the personal satisfaction and gain possible from such a venture.
Good luck to you too. Thanks for stopping by.
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:23 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Ahhh yes, that was the thing that brought me here. Believe it or not, I think it was on a google ad from within my Gmail account.

That car got a lot of attention- as it should have. Though I do not share his or your passion on the matter, I don't believe anyone can deny the amazing ingenuity that its maker possessed. It is this ingenuity that drives innovation, and it will be that innovation that carries humanity through the ages- not, at least in my mind, futile governmental attempts to limit the amount of carbon introduced into the atmosphere. But again, that's my belief. I recognize that there are many intelligent people who disagree with me, just as there are many intelligent who agree with me.

Regardless, it was good to meet you all.

Don
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Old 01-04-2008, 10:48 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Don,

I appreciate your civility. I came from a political bent very much like your own at one time. And I certainly understand survivalism, providing for myself and family is a major motivation for fuel economy.

It's not only myself I care about. I care about my kids, their kids and so on. I'd expect that you would be the same. And like it or not, there is exponential growth of people and, if not a finite amount of hydrocarbon fuel, certainly there is a cap to the rate at which such fuels regenerate, even if you subscribe to the abiotic theory of oil.

Basically oil will run out at some stage, and I would like my children to have some of the benefits of it, or at least be able to adapt slowly to life without oil instead of all at once.

Everyone has a point at which they start to worry about survival, and how they view common resources. If you were at a large freshwater dam, you would probably not have a problem with a bunch of kids horsing around with supersoakers. Your attitude about the right of people to do what they like with water would most probably change if you were stuck in an arid desert at a small watering hole sharing it with a bunch of kids horsing around with supersoakers.

Everyone has a point at which they become aware of scarcity of shared resources, and mostly it lies somewhere between those two extremes. I used to laugh at hybrid drivers and bicycling fanatics. I used to think only in terms of accelerating to 100kph and quarter mile times. I don't anymore. If I want to have those experiences, I will live vicariously through driving in Grand Theft Auto or some such.
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Are you ecomodding for you OWN gain, or for everyone elses?
I'm doing it for my OWN gain, and the gain of my own children and grandchildren. Irrespective of whether other people perceive being efficient with resources as a gain or not, their actions in consuming resources at a high rate WILL impinge upon the lives of my descendants in a negative way.
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Old 01-04-2008, 11:12 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Everyone has a point at which they start to worry about survival, and how they view common resources. If you were at a large freshwater dam, you would probably not have a problem with a bunch of kids horsing around with supersoakers. Your attitude about the right of people to do what they like with water would most probably change if you were stuck in an arid desert at a small watering hole sharing it with a bunch of kids horsing around with supersoakers.
That's an awesome analogy - and seems very accurate
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Old 01-08-2008, 07:25 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MetroMPG View Post
Hillary clinton publicly mused about returning to the 55 mph limit in 2006, but I think (can anyone confirm this?) she has since backed away from the idea.
Being a politician Clinton and / or her campaign managers most likely threw this out as a teaser to gauge public response to the topic.

No response = no action and comments along the lines of ..."That is an important point but I think the real issue here is..."

Big response = item is now part of the political manifesto. The Obama "change" theme is now echoed by ALL politicians after the response from voters in Iowa and New Hampshire.

Pete.
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Old 01-08-2008, 07:36 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by newtonsfirstlaw View Post
I've been playing with values in my fuel economy spreadsheet, and come to the conclusion that one of the biggest problems we face with fuel economy is excessive speed.

For example, I save 1/4 of the fuel with my car by going 20kph slower, from 100kph to 80kph. With other driving techniques, the difference is more. e.g. P&G ICE ON, 33%, P&G ICE OFF, 37%.

I simulated it with a typical full sized sedan (Ford Falcon), and the gain was 20%, and getting roughly 4.8l/100km at that speed.

Got any comments, slogans, or ideas?
Quite an impressive running economy.
For a comparison my Commodore (2003 V6 Acclaim auto with a/c) manages around 5.5 / 100 km ( actual not simulated ) at 90kph.
Engine speed is around 1750 RPM.

Interestingly dropping the road speed to 80 actually increases the fuel used.
I am not sure why but I think the engine is off the fuel economy "island" on the fuel map and efficiency suffers as a result.

I have been using this same technique for years both the save fuel , my licence and the engine. Big engine (3.8 litres) rev slowly = good economy.


Pete.
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Old 01-09-2008, 12:52 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Quite an impressive running economy.
For a comparison my Commodore (2003 V6 Acclaim auto with a/c) manages around 5.5 / 100 km ( actual not simulated ) at 90kph.
Engine speed is around 1750 RPM.

Interestingly dropping the road speed to 80 actually increases the fuel used.
I am not sure why but I think the engine is off the fuel economy "island" on the fuel map and efficiency suffers as a result.
Do you have your A/C on at this speed? A huge sound system?

I simulated it using kerb weight 1573kg, frontal area = 2.7m^2 (couldn't find, used a recent falcon), Cd = 0.319, rpm @ 100kph = 1944rpm, Pmax = 152kW. I get 5.2l/100kph @90kph. I get lower at 80kph.

If I assume 1kW of power is used by accessories (e.g. a/c), I still get less power used at 80kph, 5 l/100kph. Although 5.5 l/100kph @90kph.

Traveling at constant speed at those sorts of speeds, almost any car, especially with a 3.8l engine, is never anywhere near the fuel economy "island". However, the low revs help a lot. A smaller engine at the same revs would of course use significantly less fuel.

Maybe there is some sort of lean burn mode triggered above 80kph, or perhaps the lockup converter drops out at 80kph?

Quote:
Big engine (3.8 litres) rev slowly = good economy.
It's just the "rev slowly" bit that does it. There is not a car on the road with an undersized engine for any Australian highway speed, at least from the point of view that switching to a larger engine at the same revs would improve fuel economy. (Assuming constant speed travel, not going up a hill of course).
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Old 01-09-2008, 04:20 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Normally,

The a/c is off as is the factory sound system.

I suspect it is a combination of a small factors.
The roads are flat and the cruise is on which recirculates some of the exhaust gas as well as holding the throttle steady.
There may be a lean burn factor cutting in under these conditions as well.

Interestingly enough the previous Commodore sedan (an 89 VN V6 , a five speed manual and also 3.8) managed a best of 10.0 despite a lower weight , manual gearbox , no a/c and the same size tyres (205 / 65 / 15).

Cheers , Pete.

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