Hot-rodding the Toyota MGR

[e*clipse]

Originally Posted by Cyruscosmo

Hey E*clips

Concerning the Prius motor of which you speak, can you enlighten me as to which one? My original plan when I started four years ago was to use one of those motors with a purpose built case and simply attach it to the bell housing of whatever transmission in whatever application. But back then no one was brainstorming a control unit like Paul and others are doing now.

My goal is to get hold of a BMW Z3 and make a few changes...

I know, most people go with Miatas but being 6'1" I don't quite fit. Not very well at least...

Cyruscosmo

I think it was the 3rd gen Prius. I'll dig up the Oak Ridge lab tests... There are also some impressive motors in the Highlander's front transmission and the Camry.

If you are considering building a custom case for these motors - I'm VERY interested! Please keep me in the loop on that one. I would like to make a compact double motor two output power unit, so you could use the "electronic differential" Do you have access to a CNC for that?

- e*clipse

[e*clipse]

Originally Posted by Cyruscosmo

Guess what rolled into my parking lot... A toyo highlander. One of the guys who used to work here has one and let me crawl around under it taking pictures. That front mount is an iron piece and tucked up in there pretty good. The whole unit sits on a removable sub-frame.

E*clips is right it is designed to handle a lot of torque.
Cyruscosmo

Last night I did some double checking fits on my car. The MGR will fit tightly if mounted backwards in the rear. I'll have to cut out two gas tank support brackets. If mounted in the direction it was designed, the rear suspension gets in the way and the driveshafts would be at too much of an angle.

In the front it will be MUCH easier. I actlually have space for two MGR's side by side. WOO WOO! The motor rear mount will be easy using that double bolt poly isolator - I'll just weld a round reciever (or two) to the frame crossmember. The front will be easy using a top mounted crossmember that mounts to the frame rails. In fact, it will be just as easy to built the mount for 1 motor as two. Hmmm Perhaps this is an opportunity for a built-in frame stiffener....

We need an mad scientist smiley

- e*clipse

[freebeard]

Cyruscosmo -- I found the page, but it says 150kW, or 201hp;

AutoSpeed - The Electric Porsche

Sorry Maybe you could three of them.

I've got an exploded view that shows the front crossmember. I'm curious whether it could be just turned upside down. But the whole subframe would be interesting to see.

e*clipse -- What do you think for the adaptors? 1/4" steel plate? 1/4" aluminum plate? 1/8" steel with flanged edges?

[AlexanderB]

Originally Posted by e*clipse

I honestly don't know what Mitsubishi or Volvo use. Given the huge variety possible with electric motors and the fact that there is no standard, I would guess that it's different than Toyota's. They may be close enough however - for example most powerful AC motors are three phase. They can actually use the same controller whether they are induction motors or brushless DC motors. Of course the programming would have to be different, but the hardware can be the same. This brings up the value of open source projects - they allow/encourage adaptation and improvement.

Indeed, opensource is a good thing.

The biggest part of the problem for me is that the RDW (sorta like the DMV) have some very strict rules as to what can be used for a DIY EV conversion. In 2010, they added a requirement that the motor and controller must be EMI/EMC tested/certified *or* be from an already approved (mass produced) vehicle.

Originally Posted by e*clipse

They guy with the MR2 was using an Arduino for the brains and the Prius power module for the voltage step up/3 phase power switches.

That might actually work here, if you disguise the arduino enough so they don't realize its not the stock Prius power box doing all the work. They probably just want to write down the serial numbers on the labels of the motor/ecu, and after that point, nobody will ever care about it again, really..

Originally Posted by e*clipse

Last I saw, he was successful in getting it running. I have no idea about long term reliability.

I'll look into it, if it doesn't fail in a year or two, its probably reliable enough.

[Cyruscosmo]

Originally Posted by e*clipse

I think it was the 3rd gen Prius. I'll dig up the Oak Ridge lab tests... There are also some impressive motors in the Highlander's front transmission and the Camry.

If you are considering building a custom case for these motors - I'm VERY interested! Please keep me in the loop on that one. I would like to make a compact double motor two output power unit, so you could use the "electronic differential" Do you have access to a CNC for that?

- e*clipse

Thank Ya for the info. That MGR at 65hp is fine for the Geo I have as a commuter car so I will start with that and learn a few things about the new controller.

My original plan around four years ago was to use the main motor out of a Prius but back then no one knew anything about it and the Toyota techs only knew what was in the book. And a controller... Ha ha... there was none except for the one in the vehicle which was all Greek to me.

A friend of mine and I worked up a set of cads for mounting the motor in a small case of it's own with a 2:1 planetary reduction. But He passed away two years ago...

The output side is a generic 6 bolt flange that would serve as a base for an adapter that could be machined to hold the flywheel of anything you wanted. Then the unit would be fitted with a plate that was machined for any bell housing you wanted and simply bolted right to the front of the transmission that was already in place in the vehicle.

We were thinking along the lines of a semi custom kit. We send you a case and adapter pieces and you go find the motor out of a Prius, planetary gears out of a C6 automatic transmission, the variable displacement pump out of a Subaru automatic transmission and put it all together.

The reasoning for the pump was that the motor would need cooling and lube for the planetary set. And the car would need the hydraulic power for steering and brake booster. The hydraulic system would keep an accumulator pressurized for use while stopped hence the variable displacement, no need to pump when the accumulator is full..

But yes I still want to do this but four years have passed and I no longer have access to a CNC of any kind. I am done building my new shop and I am buying tools as I can. Ya know anyone with a CNC?

One day soon I will have the power to rule the world!!! @&%#$ Yes we do need an evil mad scientist smiley!

Cyruscosmo

[freebeard]

One day soon I will have the power to rule the world!!!

CNC is so 20th century. 3D printing is the future.

[e*clipse]

Originally Posted by Cyruscosmo

Thank Ya for the info. That MGR at 65hp is fine for the Geo I have as a commuter car so I will start with that and learn a few things about the new controller.

My original plan around four years ago was to use the main motor out of a Prius but back then no one knew anything about it and the Toyota techs only knew what was in the book. And a controller... Ha ha... there was none except for the one in the vehicle which was all Greek to me.

A friend of mine and I worked up a set of cads for mounting the motor in a small case of it's own with a 2:1 planetary reduction. But He passed away two years ago...

The reasoning for the pump was that the motor would need cooling and lube for the planetary set. And the car would need the hydraulic power for steering and brake booster. The hydraulic system would keep an accumulator pressurized for use while stopped hence the variable displacement, no need to pump when the accumulator is full..

But yes I still want to do this but four years have passed and I no longer have access to a CNC of any kind. I am done building my new shop and I am buying tools as I can. Ya know anyone with a CNC?

One day soon I will have the power to rule the world!!! @&%#$ Yes we do need an evil mad scientist smiley!

Cyruscosmo

Ok here's some real info (not just my fuzzy memory)

The papers below go into amazing detail and will require many cups of coffee to help with the short-circuiting brain .... They go into testing stuff that no other testing organization gets remotely close to.

The main thing that is important here is that Toyota made a major improvement in motor technology around 2005. Most of their new hybrids use this technology; this is why I say the controller for all of them can be very similar. The paper about the development of this technology is here:
http://e-mobile.ch/pdf/2005/321.pdf

Here's the ORNL paper about the 2010 Prius:
http://info.ornl.gov/sites/publicati...s/Pub26762.pdf

For your project, it actually seems like the system Toyota developed for the Lexus 600h sedans and the Camry would be a good starting point:
SciTech Connect: Evaluation of the 2008 Lexus LS 600H Hybrid Synergy Drive System

There are others, detailing the 2004, 2007, Camry, etc. available from these links.

I know some folks w/ CNC's. It may take some interesting trades, but I may be able to get some time...

I do have solids modeling software, and CNC code generating software (and know how to use it). I do have a Bridgeport mill w/ a DRO and a Clausing lathe. I could get accurate bearing locations with the DRO. It would require some clever design, because machining it from a solid chunk would require a LOT of $$$.

Oh, regarding output splines, etc: The local driveline shop is extremely good and he just got a CNC and broaching equipment. A custom spool or output shaft is no problem here. I'll check his prices today.

- e*clipse

[Cyruscosmo]

Originally Posted by freebeard

Cyruscosmo -- I found the page, but it says 150kW, or 201hp;

AutoSpeed - The Electric Porsche

Sorry Maybe you could three of them.

I've got an exploded view that shows the front crossmember. I'm curious whether it could be just turned upside down. But the whole subframe would be interesting to see.

e*clipse -- What do you think for the adaptors? 1/4" steel plate? 1/4" aluminum plate? 1/8" steel with flanged edges?

Thank Ya for the link Freebeard

Actually even 201HP would work well with a modified C4. The C4 is 2.46:1 in first gear, 1.46:1 in second and 1:1 in third. With the additional gear reduction in the differential it would get a Z3 off the line pretty quick. Add an additional motor for a dual stack and you would have 400hp at 0 RPM. I am pretty sure you could lay down some rubber with that combo.

From what I could see the front mount could be turned upside down but why? You already have those two frame arms that stick out that hold the engine/trans in the VW. The new pads to hold that bracket could be welded to either side of or on top on those arms. I am not sure how wide the bracket is or the arms on the Bug. I would guess the distance from one mount center line to the other at about 14 inches. I tried to get some good pictures but everything is so close under there that I only got parts.

Cyruscosmo

[e*clipse]

Originally Posted by freebeard

CNC is so 20th century. 3D printing is the future.

Yes, but we're talking about a 20th century problem.

Back when I graduated, my senior project was a composite (carbon & Kevlar) mountain bike. They basically didn't exist then, and are common now. The composite transmission case in that electric Porsche article is the direction I would go if I had infinite resources. In fact, the beauty I saw in the Ferrari museum's F1 displays was a huge eye-opener to using appropriate technology. ( Forged and machined aluminum or titanium, carbon fiber, etc)

The problem I see with 3d printing is accuracy and strength. Yes, they can do metals, but there is a big difference between forged metal and cast metal. I'm positive the same issue of grain structure exists with 3d printed parts. Regarding accuracy, it seems a final (probably CNC) machine job would have to be done to get the accuracy required by bearings. When I owned a CNC shop, certain bearings would require within 0.0003" tolerances. We actually had to monitor the CNC lathe's bearing temperatures to hold those numbers. I have serious doubts when people claim those accuracies out of much less accurate equipment.

[e*clipse]

Originally Posted by Cyruscosmo

Add an additional motor for a dual stack and you would have 400hp at 0 RPM. I am pretty sure you could lay down some rubber with that combo.

Cyruscosmo

How do you do that??

Horsepower = (Torque * RPM) / 5252

At 0 RPM, you have 0 HP. That's why all the HP graphs start at 0.