Hydrogen Generator Experiment

[gus]

Thanks Gus,

I really appreciate your honesty and straightforwardness - freely saying what you did and didn't do, what you found and didn't find..... And I've also found OldMechanic to be very matter-of-fact and straightforward, too. Not owning a diesel, I don't know if any of this will ever apply to me personally, but it's still interesting to learn about it from someone who's actually doing it - and who doesn't appear to be a "nut".

I see where getting a good, steady, long-range driving test would be difficult for you, but that's what would be ideal to really get a good mileage comparison - the "A-B-A" testing that MetroMPG describes so well. I can't help but wonder if the extra load the heavier alternator will put on the engine would negate the mileage gains.

But then, you said your primary goal was cleaning up the exhaust, and it sounds like you're seeing encouraging results there. So I sure hope to hear more information about your project whenever you get some.

Thanks,
Bill

Bill, The guy who built this system has the larger unit on his 2011 GMC and likewise claims performance, emission reduction and better fuel economy. In his case it was a little more complex to get the system to properly perform. He assured me though that he meets all warranty questions etc. We must not lose sight of the fact that the fuel savings are really brought about by the more thorough burning of the fuel which normally is fried in the Cat. converter.
This brings me to an interesting thought on costs.......What $ value should we attach to the emission reduction.........I am aware that there is a cost to the distilled water and the filter element in my set up. On the other hand, if by the thorough burning of the Gasoline in the modern engines we prolong the life of the Cat. what $ saving does that represent.
A final thought. I have had a much larger amp alternator installed today and if winter weather stays elsewhere I will attempt another test shortly.
I am still not able to reconcile the question of the load on the alternator related to the performance of the test.......Here is what I can't figure out.....If the power (amps) use relates to engine performance, that in turn should interpret into more fuel being burned !
But to go back to my initial test, the run with HHO drawing appx 30amps more than running on straight diesel burns less fuel......Which in the end is what I reported.
Maybe if you read this often enough you will understand what I am trying to say. (having some problems getting it into words)
Cheers.......Gus

[gus]

You can find a very well explained bit of information if you go to
hydrogen generator for diesels ......they do give their reasons for the various "pro/con"

He deals primarily with the big rigs but has a very good explanation about small engines.
Gus

[gus]

message got chopped
johnhenryhydrogen.ca

[gus]

Addendum to my above post to Bill.
I would like to add to the value questions mentioned above one important one.
when you run a HHO cell on a Gasoline powered car requiring high octane fuel, you can switch to the lowest octane fuel. The hydrogen burn will allow that and you will be amazed at the power.
I would submit that there will be a substantial saving in fuel costs and together with the much stressed lesser emissions are a major benefit
Gus

[wmjinman]

Originally Posted by gus

Addendum to my above post to Bill.
I would like to add to the value questions mentioned above one important one.
when you run a HHO cell on a Gasoline powered car requiring high octane fuel, you can switch to the lowest octane fuel. The hydrogen burn will allow that and you will be amazed at the power.
I would submit that there will be a substantial saving in fuel costs and together with the much stressed lesser emissions are a major benefit
Gus

It seems that when I was looking into the hydrogen stuff back in the late '70s, hydrogen had the opposite effect - it was the equivalent of LOW octane fuel, and the engine had to be adjusted accordingly. Either retard the spark, lower the compression, or install water injection. Seems I remember it also REDUCED the power slightly. Now, this was to burn ONLY hydrogen as the fuel, mixed with air in a "gax mixer" carburetor.

So I wouldn't expect adding hydrogen in smaller amounts to cause the equivalent of HIGHER octane and/or more power - - - seems like it would be the opposite. ???

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

Let's have an Ecomodder meet where HHO aficionados as well as other Modders meet for a weekend where they are tested and timed over a closed loop. GPS distance and fuel is measured via weight. Our own mini Xprize get-together if you will. And we can run it in an orderly fashion.

Organizing MPG competitions happens all the time ... over and over again around the U.S. .... that part of the Ecomodder side is easy ... I suspect you will find it much much harder to get the HHO aficionados out there to compete head to head... or the money shot ... let other people run the test HHO vehicle on that same closed loop controlled course both with and without the HHO system enabled.

I'd be all in favor of the concept of the event quantification ... but I have my doubts about how successful you will be at getting it all organized ... but ... best of luck to you ... Be sure to post up a thread of the details of when and where and such , once you've managed to pull it together.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by gus

Here is what I can't figure out.....If the power (amps) use relates to engine performance, that in turn should interpret into more fuel being burned !

Yes it does... this is well tested by anybody who has ever done the alternator delete mod ... every 1 joule of electrical energy the alternator puts out means it takes more than 1 joule of mechanical energy away ( less than 100% efficient ).

This less than 100% efficiency continues with each step in the conversion circle.

Mechanical to electrical = Alternator ( less than 100% )
Electrical to Chemical ( hydrogen ) = Electrolysis fuel cell ( less than 100% )
Chemical to Mechanical = ICE ( less than 100% )

The ICE benefit of Hydrogen is due to it's faster flame speed ... but that does not escape the above 3 conversion step losses.

Originally Posted by gus

But to go back to my initial test, the run with HHO drawing appx 30amps more than running on straight diesel burns less fuel......Which in the end is what I reported.

And I'm still waiting for more details as outlined before ... in my previous response to you ... Like how you measured the Liters of fuel you used over that 48 km distance?

As has been posted ... so far the less fuel still has other potential explanations ... assuming it is the HHO system is a leap of pure faith until those other variables are properly accounted for... if careful measurements are taken then the combined effect can be properly quantified and determined exactly how much + or - net effect the HHO system had ... but only if careful measurements are taken to account for those other variables.

[suspectnumber961]

Read the page on smaller engines and would agree. As mentioned before I designed and built my own system (half*ss?) and soon realized that the engineering is pretty complex and space is limited in a small vehicle...not to mention tuning a gas engine to run with HHO.

Could you mention a ballpark figure on the cost of your system? Pretty sure I wouldn't try to make my own again. Systems for cars I've seen recently run in the $700-800 range (?) and I have no idea as to the quality.

Originally Posted by gus

You can find a very well explained bit of information if you go to
hydrogen generator for diesels ......they do give their reasons for the various "pro/con"

He deals primarily with the big rigs but has a very good explanation about small engines.
Gus

[UFO]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

No, I haven't posted a serious reply. I think it would be better if something was built and brought to you to test. You seem to have a graduate level understanding of combustion theory - chemical kinematics and branching and such. So you would be well placed to test such combustion engines. Of course, if such engine gained even a fraction of a percent in efficiency, you would have to report as such. And since you used the word "NEVER", you would have to leave yourself discredited on these forums. Are you willing to take such a challenge? I am willing. We could run the buildup over the winter and build up the drama. All the HHO "Nuts" against you the "Sheriff of Science". Meet on the 4th of July, at high noon in your neck of the woods.

In one hundred years of internal combustion history, that challenge has been extended to HHO proponents and never met. Good luck with that. And please go ahead and discredit me, and thermodynamics as well, it would be an honor -- that is what the scientific method is all about.

However, if you cannot see how basic energy conversion concepts govern your experiments, you will be at a disadvantage in controlling your experiments and understanding what helps or hurts fuel mileage.

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

Let's have an Ecomodder meet where HHO aficionados as well as other Modders meet for a weekend where they are tested and timed over a closed loop. GPS distance and fuel is measured via weight. Our own mini Xprize get-together if you will. And we can run it in an orderly fashion.

Sounds good to me.

[RustyLugNut]

I have never supported the "runs only on water" or "triples your mileage" claims, but a path to a positive gain is there. It might be a fraction of the total produced power and it may never provide a marketable solution to fuel economy but it is there.

Originally Posted by UFO

In one hundred years of internal combustion history, that challenge has been extended to HHO proponents and never met. Good luck with that. And please go ahead and discredit me, and thermodynamics as well, it would be an honor -- that is what the scientific method is all about.

However, if you cannot see how basic energy conversion concepts govern your experiments, you will be at a disadvantage in controlling your experiments and understanding what helps or hurts fuel mileage.

I understand Thermochemistry and Chemical Thermodynamics. I understand that by manipulating various reaction parameters I can add a small quantity of hydrogen to preempt the branch reactions and start combustion with a fuel mixture that differs from the starting fuel/oxidizer. I do not need to break the laws of thermodynamics.

Sounds good to me.

Challenge given, challenge accepted. Let's do it.

If there are any HHO producers or manufacturers that are confident enough in your systems to have a second party test them, feel free to join.