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Old 12-19-2012, 06:43 PM   #541 (permalink)
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Giberish to you because you are assuming combustion is simple.

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Originally Posted by UFO View Post
The Nasa study demonstrated an efficiency gain of 3% with bottled H2 and a flow rate substantially higher than a little bubble bottle. You cannot make the argument for a 30% efficiency for on-board hydrogen generation that will produce a mileage improvement. You need over-unity to balance the energy inputs. Sorry, all your suppositions about only a 140 watt input, cylinder pressure increase and crank angles is just gibberish.
It is not. It has pathways that can be manipulated. Hydrogen augmentation is just one of them.

And that is why I am willing to build and show proof of concept. I have selectively distributed the idea in paper to peers in academia and in the profession of combustion and they agree the idea has merit. My gibberish is well understood there.

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Old 12-19-2012, 06:48 PM   #542 (permalink)
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This is such a simplistic view of HHO.

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Originally Posted by Old Mechanic View Post
For those who think HHO is a practical alternative, why not just run your car on HHO? If it is an alternative to gasoline or diesel and you have a mileage increase just keep adding your HHO bubblers until you are running on pure HHO. Couldn't be more simple, right?

I did some checking a few years back and one liter of HHO has the BTU energy content of one and one half wooden kitchen matches. The only "fuel" is the hydrogen, which by atomic weight is only 1/8 th the mass of the mixture.

Lets say you need 2 ounces of gasoline to go 1 mile, thats 64 MPG, exceptional mileage. Now take your calculated number of liters of HHO your system produces per minute. If it was 50 liters a minute then you have 75 wooden matches worth of energy to move you car 1 mile.

Now lets say your car gets 64 MPG and uses 2 ounces of gasoline to move that same mile.

Take that two ounces of gasoline and run it through a fuel injector over an ignition source. Compare that flame to your pile of 75 wooden matches burned all at the same time.

You can rationalize the HHO theorey to the end of time, but most people with any common sense would know that 2 ounces of gas atomized through any decent fuel injector is going to produce a heck of a lot more flame and heat, compared to 75 wooden matches. The expansion of that heated air and fuel is what makes your car move.

The two ounces of atmoized fuel would give you an idea of the energy requred to get 64 MPG at 64 MPG. 75 burnt wooden matches is not even a fraction of the energy required and thats at a rate of production of 50 liters per minute. Double that number of matches, 100 liters per minute and you still would not come close to that two ounces of gasoline. Thats 6000 liters of HHO per hour, anyone got a generator that comes close to that?

regards
Mech
It is assumed HHO is to be exchanged and substituted for the fuel. This is not what I am proposing or implying.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:49 PM   #543 (permalink)
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FYI here are the results of 2 Dyno. tests

http://www.hhovideos.co/764-more-hor...hho-m-cell.htm

HHO 51.5% reduction in emissions with M-Cell In Vancouver | | ENERGY SYSTEM INFOENERGY SYSTEM INFO
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:53 PM   #544 (permalink)
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hhovideos.com/764-more-horse-power-with-hho-m-cell.htm
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:53 PM   #545 (permalink)
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I agree completely.

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Originally Posted by IamIan View Post
I understand the 'main goal' ... it is a good one ... especially if the testing is properly quantified.

I was just saying that I think historically getting the HHO vehicles out to show up will be the harder fight... especially for a 'to be proofed by a capable second party'.
HHO proponents can be as flaky as their understanding of their own inventions.

That is why I am willing to volunteer my own construct to test the concept of HHO and to submit it for review to someone who is an avowed skeptic but who has a requisite science background.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:54 PM   #546 (permalink)
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energysysteminfo.com/hho-51-5-reduction-in-emissions-with-m-cell-in-vancouver
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:40 PM   #547 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyLugNut View Post
It is assumed HHO is to be exchanged and substituted for the fuel. This is not what I am proposing or implying.
It matters not what is assumed. The physics don't care.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:22 PM   #548 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyLugNut View Post
It is assumed HHO is to be exchanged and substituted for the fuel. This is not what I am proposing or implying.
Title header.
Quote "This is such a simplistic view of HHO"
That was intentional to make absolutely certain it did not go over YOUR head.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:36 AM   #549 (permalink)
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I know my physics quite well, thank you.

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Originally Posted by UFO View Post
It matters not what is assumed. The physics don't care.
This allows me to work within its bounds.

This is why I am willing to do a buildup and presentation. That way you can peruse the application of HHO as I implement it. If it doesn't work at all to a positive gain, you get to denigrate me in front of the world. If it works . . . well . . . I knew coming into this I had to run the gauntlet of criticism. So I did my homework beforehand. Only a fool walks into his enemies den unprepared. And, foolish the man who baits an opponent without measure.

The NASA paper you so religiously refer to is somewhere in my notes from my underclassman lab studies back in the late 70's. Mimeographed. Very faded. I had to download a PDF so I could read it again. I know it quite well. They hold RPM and load steady at a singular point and vary fuel mix and timing. It is an excellent study, often referred to in later studies. But, it is hardly complete.

They do not add to the enthalpy of the reaction via heat addition to the intake air and fuel. They use a relatively sluggish combustion engine design - in comparison to high turbulence modern applications. Turbulence also adds enthalpy. This high enthalpy provides the energy to rapidly produce the radicals which often are endothermic. Throw in high compression ( the engine the study used had a relatively good 10:1 compression ratio if I recall ) and increased time to react ( lowered RPM ) and you can extend the lean limit well past the lambda they achieved.

Does this sound familiar? It should. Several people over the decades have created high enthalpy engines using recirculated engine heat and turbocharging. Modern engines such as the Honda lean burn touch on some of this.

But, at a certain point, the lean limit is reached. For the Honda engines and it's ilk, it is somewhere approaching 24:1 AFR ( air/fuel ratio ). The performance becomes sluggish as the increasingly slow burn is extended via early ignition and late combustion. It is easy to see this early ignition as "negative work" as combustion is initiated as early as 45 degrees or more before top dead center (TDC). Also, the flame front becomes increasingly erratic causing a loss of power and an increase in unburned fuel.

This is where the small amounts off HHO can be beneficial. Yes, the 140 watts expended in an electrolysis cell will not produce copious amounts of HHO, but it can provide a useful amount.

If you look at a chart of Heats of Formation for the fuel/oxidizer family we are working with (hydrocarbon and air ) you will see them commonly ordered top to bottom, high to low. At the very top is the carbon atom with it's massive +717 KJ/mol reflecting it's tremendous bond energy. Much lower down is monatomic hydrogen with it's relatively paltry 218 KJ/mol rating. Just above the diatomic H2 and O2 which have a zero value, is the OH- radical with it's miniscule 39 KJ/mol. This low rating is important because it means the HHO added easily dissociates and forms OH- ( assuming O2 from the air is also used ) if we have added sufficient enthalpy ( heat, in simplicity ) to cause this endothermic reaction. As in aqueous solutions, the OH- radical is highly reactive and disruptive. I postulate that, as it collides and interacts with the hydrocarbon fuel, subspecies are formed ( acetylene, benzene, hydrazine, etc. ) along with more free hydrogen which quickly forms more OH- radicals. All of this is done pre-flame front initiation. These reactions occur in the nano second time scale. Engine operation can be timed in the milli second scale. It is easy to see how a small number of OH- radicals can become numerous ( by orders of magnitude ) in only a few degrees of engine operation - given the right enthalpy boost. By the time combustion is initiated, the fuel mix is "primed and ready" and the burn rate can be more concentrated in the effective crank angle range to derive more positive work from the combusted fuel.

The above describes spark ignited engines - diesels have a somewhat different mechanism.

As you can see from the description above, we are not just adding HHO, we have to juggle other parameters. But, it does result in a net energy gain via reduction of lost work.

Last edited by RustyLugNut; 12-20-2012 at 02:03 AM.. Reason: Spelling and word use.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:42 AM   #550 (permalink)
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Touchy are we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Mechanic View Post
Title header.
Quote "This is such a simplistic view of HHO"
That was intentional to make absolutely certain it did not go over YOUR head.
I assure you, I understand much more about this subject than you realize.

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