Hydrogen Generator Experiment

[Nerys]

Ok first I hate it when people say it can not work because it takes more energy than you get out of it AS IF this some how does NOT apply to gasoline? Entrophy and Conservation applies to ALL power sources. Period. So stop mentioning it since this only shows lack of understanding over what is happening.

I am NO expert on this but HERE is where I see several problems etc..

First You should not have to modify the engine or ECU at all in modern cars (may be required in older cars)

The ECU should handle this for you. As it detects more fuel in the system (hydrogen) it should realize that hey there is too much fuel here. Since YOUR injecting the H2 independently it will compensate by reducing the amount of gasoline it injects.

This all depends on whether the remains of H2 combustion properly trigger the ECU into recognizing that there is more fuel in the system than it needs.

Next problem. STORING the hydrogen. Its very hard to "hang onto" hydrogen it can and will escape from most containers rather adeptly. IE the entire problem has always been being able to CONTAIN enough hydrogen to be useful.

Next. POWER. power is not relevant to me. MONEY is relevant to me. SO what I need to know is will the "fuel saved" by the injection of hydrogen offset the cost of the electricity to produce that hydrogen.

IF it saves me $4 in gasoline per tank and only costs me $2 in electricity to produce it on my electric bill then IT IS worth it regardless of how "efficient" it is.

The cost of our energy is of NO consequence to the EFFICIENCY of the energy medium.

My only concern is does the energy needed to make hydrogen (even if its ten times more than it will get me in the engine) CHEAPER than the gasoline it stops me from having to use.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

I agree with everything you've written, except the first point. The gasoline is not refined in the car; and the hydrogen is getting produced in the car. They are not equivalent.

Back to another point someone mentioned earlier: I think that heating the gasoline before injecting it would have a strong benefit. This is how a lot of efficiency is gained with oil fired furnaces, and vaporizing the gasoline (as opposed to having droplets) is key to gaining efficiency.

[Formula413]

As I understand it the O2 sensors should not come into play when using this device because, in theory, it would supply a perfect 2/1 mix of hydrogen and oxygen into the intake stream, which would enter the exhaust stream as water vapor which would be ignored by the O2s.

[Nerys]

Does not matter where its "being refined" Energy In will always be more than energy out. Period. Until the laws of physics and chemistry as we know them change this is not a point of discussion.

It also does not matter if the H2 is being produced in the car. It all comes down to HOW MUCH does it cost. If you want to produce the H2 from the engine itself well there is a lot going on here. Sure the power has to ultimately come from the engine so this would seem to be a lose lose scenario but it depends I do not know enough about it to say yes or no. MY GUT tells me that if your using electrolysis that once you have enough amps from a battery to produce enough hydrogen to run a car you already have enough amps to go twice as far as an electric car IE no point.

Now if there is a chemical way to release H2 IE you fill a tank with water and "add" a catalyst well the question is NOT which is more efficient (remember thats irrelevant to me and SHOULD be irrelevant to you) the question is which is cheaper.

IE is enough catalyst to go 300 miles cheaper than the equivalent amount of gasoline.

[fshagan]

There is some actual research going on with this, at least with diesel engines. Fast Company did an article a few years back on a mechanic/inventor in Kansas who uses hydrogen injection in diesel engines to increase fuel economy (his Lincoln Continental is said to get 100 MPG, although half the fuel burned is the hydrogen, and I don't think that's in the equation). The full story is at Fast Company.

While researching alternative fuels, he learned about the work of Uli Kruger, a German who has spent decades in Australia exploring techniques for blending fuels that normally don't mix. One of Kruger's systems induces hydrogen into the air intake of a diesel engine, producing a cascade of emissions-reducing and mileage-boosting effects. The hydrogen, ignited by the diesel combustion, burns extremely clean, producing only water as a by-product. It also displaces up to 50% of the diesel needed to fuel the car, effectively doubling the diesel's mileage and cutting emissions by at least half. Better yet, the water produced from the hydrogen combustion cools down the engine, so the diesel combustion generates fewer particulates--and thus fewer nitrogen-oxide emissions.

Appears at Page 3

They use hydrogen from a gas bottle for it, though. This is also the guy creating a hybrid for Neil Young ... and there has been some criticism about hype from that project.

You have to remain skeptical about these things, though.

[cfg83]

trikkonceptz -

Originally Posted by trikkonceptz

-cfg83

The setup is very simple ... you tap the intake after the MAP sensor avoiding such problems with air fuel ratios .. the only variable is the ECU leaning back the fuel once it realizes it needs less to combust in the chamber. They claim that the Hydrogen created is browns gas and other than the mineral water to start it, distilled water is all you need to maintain it. They claim there is no cleaning or maintenance involved once you install it.

Their only caution is that you install it below the level of the air intake. Also the unit has a pretty hefty air filter, but otherwise, simplicity it is.

If it works, the "no cleaning" must be because of the benign mineral water catalyst.

If you insert the H2/02 after the MAP/MAF sensor, then you don't need to spoof it. I think I have heard of this strategy before.

It has been my understanding that the A/F ratio is important regardless of the MAP/MAF sensor. The extra 02 being generated creates an air stream that has a higher oxygen content than "normal atmostphere". Under hypermiling conditions, the engine is probably in closed-loop operation 99% of the time. Since the ECU/PCM uses the 02 sensor to determing the A/F ratio, more oxygen in the exhausts gases *should* result in the ECU/PCM adding fuel to compensate, .

Tech - Closed Loop
http://www.hondata.com/techclosed.html

In closed loop operation the ECU uses the oxygen sensor to tell if the fuel mixture is rich or lean. However, due to the characteristics of the oxygen sensor it can’t tell exactly how rich or lean, it only knows that the mixture is richer or leaner than optimum. The ECU will enrich the mixture if the oxygen sensor shows that the mixture is lean, and lean the mixture if it looks rich. The result of this is that the mixture will swing back and forward around the stoichiometric point.

If there is more oxygen, then the 02 sensor will be detecting more than "14.7" parts oxygen in the exhaust stream, so the ECU/PCM will richen the mixture (add fuel).

Currently the Palm beach sherrif's office is putting 2 units in their cruisers to see what results they get. With the beating those cars take any positive change will be a good boost for their product.

From what I have read, this could be the best scenario for the system. Again, for hypermilers that are not putting their engines under high load conditions, the projected benefits would probably be less.

Mind you they have video dyno tests of thir unit working on a vehicle with and without. They basically moved an established system into this test vehicle to see immeadiate results. The dyno confirmed improvements of 7 miles per gallon I think. They did the run with and empty tank adding 1 gallon of gas each time, once without the unit as baseline and a second time with it for their tests.

Who knows this may actually work, I figured you guys could sniff out a rat if it were to good to be true.

I am a biased proponent, but I wish the price was lower. I hate spending other people's money on my recommendation unless I am 90%+ sure they will benefit or the price/risk is low. They aren't really selling you a complicated product. The materials are probably less than $100. They are selling their "expertise" to make it work.

CarloSW2

[cfg83]

Formula413 -

Originally Posted by Formula413

As I understand it the O2 sensors should not come into play when using this device because, in theory, it would supply a perfect 2/1 mix of hydrogen and oxygen into the intake stream, which would enter the exhaust stream as water vapor which would be ignored by the O2s.

Really? I hadn't heard that. Isn't the exhaust stream above 700 degrees? Would the extra 02 have recombined into water vapor at that temperature? :

Understanding oxygen sensors can help techs test, diagnose
http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/dec2002/mech.htm

In construction of the zirconia sensing element, a porous platinum electrode material covers the inner and outer surfaces of the zirconia solid-state electrolyte. The inner surface of the sensing element is exposed to an outside air reference, while hot gases in the exhaust stream surround the sensor's outer portion. Oxygen content of outside air is approximately 21 percent, while exhaust gases have much lower oxygen content - between 1 percent and 3 percent.

Differences in the two oxygen levels, and the electrolytic properties existing between the two platinum electrodes, allow ion transfer to take place and generate a small electrical charge. Oxygen ions are electrically charged particles that flow through the zirconia sensing element when there is a disparity in oxygen levels. The greater the ion flow, the higher the voltage produced. Once the zirconia sensor element reaches an operating temperature of 572 degrees Fahrenheit to 680 degrees Fahrenheit, signal voltage output can range from near zero to 1 volt - depending on the oxygen content of the exhaust gases.

CarloSW2

[Formula413]

Well, the byproduct of burning a 2/1 hydrogen/oxygen mix is water, so if this device is supplying the engine with that, there wouldn't be any O2 left over, right? Unless there is some reason that the hydrogen would not burn completely. Water vapor is one of the main byproducts of burning gasoline, so in theory it shouldn't make any difference to the O2 sensors.

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by cfg83

If there is more oxygen, then the 02 sensor will be detecting more than "14.7" parts oxygen in the exhaust stream, so the ECU/PCM will richen the mixture.
CarloSW2

True it will add fuel, the engine will make more power and if you dont want to accelerate then you will back off the throttle reducing the source of O2 to the engine and then the computer will de-fuel to normal or less.

[trikkonceptz]

I failed to mention, thinking some of you may have noticed, that once the Hydrogen is produce and seperated the remaining Oxygen does not get put into the engine. There is a seperate hose that runs off the unit into a filter and aired out into the atmosphere.