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Old 02-16-2011, 06:20 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by stovie View Post
see how much hydrogen and oxygen is created,
I think it would be useful ... for your own on going refinements as well as for others ... if you quantified two important things:
  • what is the rate of liquid water consumption in 1 hour.. ideally in grams.
  • how much electrical energy kwh were used in that 1 hour.

I figure it is much easier to measure the consumption of liquid water than to accurately measure the gas production ... and sense we know the balanced chemical formula H20 ... we will have a reasonably accurate estimate of how much hydrogen and how much oxygen was produced given a specific amount of consumed water and consumed electricity.

Originally Posted by stovie View Post
on anything else i'd say go with the science but this is something that has to be done personally to be proven.
Experimentation is at the heart of science ... you just need to include some accurate measurements in order to quantify the results... the quantified data is just as important the method of experimentation.

When I have done experiments with electrolysis and Hydrogen ICEs myself ... I found that the quantification was the most useful part... and I found using the weight of consumed water was the easiest way to quantify the amount rate of consumption... and accurate quantification of the volume consumption could also be used ... but I preferred the by weight method myself.

After you get some quantified numbers of the two things you are consuming you will be in a much better position to evaluate any refinements you make ... to see if they improved or reduced the efficiency of the equipment ... just like we need to quantify the number of miles and the number of gallons in order to determine the MPG.

best of luck with measuring your consumption ... be sure to post the results when you have them.

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Old 02-16-2011, 08:44 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by stovie View Post
on anything else i'd say go with the science but this is something that has to be done personally to be proven i will admit that if your trying to seperate hydrogen and oxygen using electrolysis then ya it's going to take more energy then you'll get back from burning it BUT if you forget about seperating the two then it's easier to make lots of hydrogen and oxygen from it and also you have to have a electrolizer in the water to allow easier power transfer through the water. take like 5 plates put them 1/8 of an inch apart in sequence and put about 1/2 a cup baking soda to 1 gallon destilled water then put power to the outer plates and see how much hydrogen and oxygen is created, i'm sure it's not that much to get 5 plates and test it so you have your own proof weather it works or not. I got my proof and your not going to change my mind cause i've done it first hand!!!!!!!
I think I will fly away on my magical unicorn now...
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Old 08-09-2022, 05:21 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ChazInMT View Post
Stovie, It won't work. The numbers don't add up. Gasoline is a hydrocarbon. Hydrogen and Carbon molecules are combined with the oxygen in the air to produce CO2 and H2O. Basically, our cars are all hydrogen powered as it is. 1 gallon of gasoline creates 1 gallon of water as a combustion byproduct. So by using electrolysis to break down a quart of water over a period of weeks or months while hundreds of gallons of gasoline are consumed and adding it to the fuel mixture, it is too small of a fraction of the total fuel to make a difference.

Also you must consider that it takes energy to perform the electrolysis, more energy than is created by recombining the hydrogen and oxygen when you combust it in the engine. Think about it....if you could just run an electric generator, separate the H & O in water, then burn it in an engine that created enough power to not only run the generator some more, but to propel whatever vehicle it was contained in, you'd have a perpetual motion machine and then some.

Get yer head out of yer butt and use some common freakin sense. Our cars are already powered by Hydrogen & Oxygen, your miniscule contribution of hydrogen and oxygen to the mix is like saying that by using a squirt gun along with a 2" fire hose at 80 PSI will put out a fire twice as quick.

Do some research, find out what gasoline and combustion are, ask yourself "Why don't we just use the brown gas to power our vehicles and forget about using any gasoline at all?" When you answer that question to yourself, you'll be all like, "Oh, I see, electrolysis takes more energy than it can produce, so the car won't go." You believe in a chemical perpetual motion process, it is no different than any other perpetual motion device, it violates the laws of physics.

The 10 - 15 amps represent 120 - 180 watts of power, 1/4 horsepower. Do you really think using the hydrogen from a bouncy balloon or 2 in an engine would create 1/4 horsepower???

If you continue to argue with me without coming up with real scientific facts, this will make you look like a very dim bulb indeed.

Kill this thread. Or put it in a category of its own with Trolls, Fairies, Unicorns, Yetis, Mermaids, Water Ionizers, LED Light Therapy, Homeopathy, Intake Tornadoes, Fuel Line Magnets, and Vortex Generators.

Great AeroCap build ChazInMT

But, before you completely discount HHO/Hydrogen, here are a couple of things to consider:

Quench Distance (from cylinder wall and head etc) is around 2.5 mm for gasoline IIRC and probably more for Diesel.

So in your mind's eye one can imagine this cylinder (of unburned AF mixture) with a wall thickness of 2.5 mm that is not being burned.
Add the 2.5 mm for the head (sans exhaust valve; closer/hotter) and ?? mm above the piston surface.

Now IIRC the quench distance for hydrogen is 0.5mm
Now 'The Picture' above changes to a much thinner cylinder etc of unburned AF mixture...

As you said; ideally you'd get CO2, H2O and N2 coming out the exhaust.
Bit what you actually get is unburned HCs, CO, NOx and the above CO2, H2O and N2.

(There are plenty of Peer Reviewed, Published Studies proving that H2 and/or HHO decrease HCs, CO and increase CO2 for those that care to look)

Now a lot of the unburned HCs and incompletely burned CO is due to point 1, but all of it..?

Here we need to think about the flammability of H2.
It's 4% to 74.2% in air, and 4% to 95% in pure oxygen.
So, unlike the HCs, its likely to all burn during combustion and result in more of the HCs burning too..?

Then there's the speed of combustion to consider:
The optimal crank angle for Maximum Combustion Pressure is anywhere from 5 to 20 degrees after TDC. (usually 16-18 deg)

To get this Max CP we have to light the fire before TDC, which tends to try and turn the crank backwards..!
What if HHO decreased this..?
ie: you could retard your timing some, decreasing that unwanted backward pressure, while still getting Max CP..?

Sure the engine has to turn the alternator to crack your water... most of the time, bit not all of it:
Gearing down when you need to slow down (over-run) turns a bit of wasted momentum into a charged battery.
With some basic electrical control/s one could cut HHO production during over-run.

Electrolyzer Efficiency:
The minimum and most efficient voltage to/for splitting water is aroind 1.62 volts IIRC.
Anything more is turned into heat.
(Heat helps efficiency, until boiling starts, but said heat can be acquired from waste heat elsewhere.
And if the cell utilized a plain old radiator cap one could get up to 120 C without boiling)

Point is most wet cells are hugely inefficient as the voltage skips any center plates and hoes directly from the 0 volt plate to the 12+ volt plate.

There are a # of other things that improve efficiency; Optimal plate spacing, finish, and area (power density)

You will find some very interesting info on how a magnetic field increases the efficiency of O2 evolution, and this H2.
And that's not the end of it:
Pulsing = changeng E field + changing M field.
Light and electrons jumping to higher orbits etc.
And again waste heat: (I'll keep my 'Cards close to my chest' for now...

Steamy/hot HHO:
As you know steam is invisible.
The steam we see is in fact condensed water mist.
Consider what this mist does:
You will ne surprised to lean that no matter how hot the water is; when it evaporates into air (endothermic reaction) you always end up with cooler air.

In this case that means cooler/denser intake air = more O2 in the combustion chamber.

Now lets envision the compression stroke:
The boiling point of water increases with pressure.
So at a guess I'd say the water mist largely remains a mist during compression.
An ever hotter mist (as compression increases) but water...

Now you have ignition:
That added heat turns the mist back into steam, with a volume 1800x greater than the water.
That's added pressure! (without the NOx forming temperatures)

Then consider the Thermolysis of that H2O:
At around 2200 C H2O disassociates into H?-H2 and O?-O2.
That's a temperature reached in combusting gasses in car engines, especially if there's a bit of HHO about....

So... maybe 'these HHO freaks' HHO cells are producing way more HHO than even they realize..???!

Just a thought or 2... before the book is closed....

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