Looking for help building a Gas Vapor system

[racprops]

done

[racprops]

done

[ChazInMT]

Yeah, depending on load, the timing may spark the plug a lot further before TDC than you'd think, the fuel detonation does take a finite amount of time, long enough for the piston to be in the optimal position when the pressure can most effectively be used.

That said, everything else about fuel vapor is pure BS. If someone is stupid enough to believe it, they aren't going to be smart enough to understand actual science, no point trying to make sense to them, as we've seen before it falls on deaf ears..lalalalala I can't hear you......but you must listen to yet another pointless, baseless, pseudoscience, sounds good to me so it must be true "Fact".

I say we encourage racprops.....lets all go dredge up like minded crap about the vapor thing and get him to build something really extreme dealing with fuel heated to hundreds of degrees and pressurized thousands of pounds outside the combustion chamber, like maybe in a Soda bottle (wrapped in multiple layers of duct tape of course). Then we'll maybe see if Darwin had the right idea.

[oil pan 4]

Please explain "power value".
Its new to me and likely everyone else too.

There is some merit to fuel vapor. A btu per mile comparison propane gives about a 3% fuel economy advantage over gasoline, likely because it's pure vapor.

[t vago]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

A btu per mile comparison propane gives about a 3% fuel economy advantage over gasoline, likely because it's pure vapor.

Or likely because the fact that propane only has 80% of the energy content of gasoline, requiring the engine throttle to be opened significantly more on a propane engine, in order to do the same work as an equivalent gasoline engine. This would have the side effect of lowering engine vacuum (and increasing fuel economy as a result).

[Frank Lee]

Originally Posted by racprops

First Propane does NOT have the same power value as gasoline, gasoline vapor is many times more powerful as all the other vapor fuels.

Perhaps. I haven't looked into that.

As for the rest there is so much to cover...Like: We no longer really need the Cat convertor with today's computer controlled system BUT IT IS IN THE LAW and cannot be changed...and just because of a few seconds the car might pollute.

Perhaps. I haven't looked into that. Then again, the cat isn't hurting fuel efficiency so meh.

AND ever watch Top Gear??

A mixture of entertainment sensationalism and fact. Like just about ALL of our media these days, be careful what you take to heart as "fact".

So... what about Top Gear?

They can but cars over there that get 75MPG.

Diesel yes BUT 35 to 75 MPG cars...Why??

Imperial gallons. They're bigger. I know this ground has been covered before.

Consider what would happen if car makers did start selling such cars here....the government departments that make their money off cars would have a fit..

Consider how much money gas taxes bring in.

They can- and will- raise the rates.

Consider how "they" have outlawed bio diesel in many states??

Consider how IF you do run bio-diesel you better pay your road taxes.

P.S. The premise is false. Bio-diesel is legal everywhere.

Even with regular diesel they pout if non-road-taxed ag diesel gets used inappropriately. It's a different color so The Law can easily test it.

When they decide too many non-road-taxpaying users are out there they'll switch to a miles driven tax collection system.

The highest MPG in a car is officially 375MPG...A Shell oil company MPG test/competition a couple of decades ago.

Granted it is not a drive-able car but 375MPG...

There was an immense amount of cheating with that car in addition to the physics advantages of counting- what- 80% of the miles while coasting at an average what- 15 mph. I know this has been explained before too.

And so much more..

Bet this will end in up in the "The Unicorn Corral" soon, been there before...

Things only end up there for a good reason.

Theoretically a Unicorn could be released from the Corral if it proves true. Has never happened though.

I was hoping to get some real help this time, but it is not looking too hopeful...

I'm still waiting for your help with my math in my first post here.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by racprops

Bet this will end in up in the "The Unicorn Corral" soon, been there before...

I was hoping to get some real help this time, but it is not looking too hopeful...

I was hoping you would take to the discussion and not force your views and thus, keep this out of the Unicorn Sin Bin.

I have actually built vapor carbs, GEETs and HHO generators. I also went to university and got a classic science and engineering background. I would really like to help you out if you would be willing to listen to the arguments everyone has put forth. You have to answer those before you can move forward. They are good questions.

And you have to drop the expectations that gasoline has some magical properties that allow gains in the order of magnitudes some people are peddling. You have to realize the Shell Eco Racer is hardly practical as was the Pogue Car. Yes, both utilize principles you can leverage, but the gains will be in the percentage range. Not a doubling and more of your fuel economy.

OldMech was a former member here who was a proponent of a system that does pretty much everything you are outlining. High pressure and temperature was applied to the fuel right before injection. This placed the fuel into a state of "super critical fluids" and allowed them to leverage some interesting properties.

Supercritical fuel injection and combustion - SAE International

I am trying to be as helpful as possible, and in their own ways, so are the rest of the forum members. You have to be willing to join the discussion instead of ignoring the questions.

And I still have the 78 Dodge B350 van I mentioned in another thread. It had a vapor system, hydrogen augmentation and lean burn. It went from 14 mpg on the highway to 21 mpg. At 55 mph, constant. It was educational and enjoyable, but there was nothing magical about the principles we are working with.

[Hersbird]

Originally Posted by davelobi

CAFE wouldn't be an issue if there was any way in the world an automotive V-8 could obtain 100 mpg! The car manufacturers would be all over it. The internal combustion engine is rapidly losing opportunities for big gains in fuel economy. It is pretty well engineered in the modern engines. AFM (active fuel management, ie dropping cylinders under light loads) and start/stop technology are a couple of the latest gains after going to lighter lubricants. Concentration has been on lighter and slippery cars as well as less and less displacement. We are still buying V8 vehilcles because we want/like em and gas is cheap.

You can pick up a couple thousand BTUs/gallon in the winter by storing some summer formulation gasoline.

just my 2 cents

I really doubt economy will ever again be allowed to improve at the expense of higher emissions. Look at VW, that's basically what they did, and they will try and bankrupt the 2nd or 3rd biggest carmaker over it even though it was just a small portion of the cars they make. If anything under current plans gas cars are going to need to add exhaust particulate filters and regeneration modes like a diesel especially on direct injection. Everything is one step forward, 2 steps back by design. This is why I would live to see what is possible emissions be damned so we could see what exactly it is all adding up to.

[Frank Lee]

Originally Posted by t vago

Or likely because the fact that propane only has 80% of the energy content of gasoline, requiring the engine throttle to be opened significantly more on a propane engine, in order to do the same work as an equivalent gasoline engine. This would have the side effect of lowering engine vacuum (and increasing fuel economy as a result).

WE NEED VAPORIZED DIESEL!!!

Oh... wait...

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

I really doubt economy will ever again be allowed to improve at the expense of higher emissions. Look at VW, that's basically what they did, and they will try and bankrupt the 2nd or 3rd biggest carmaker over it even though it was just a small portion of the cars they make. If anything under current plans gas cars are going to need to add exhaust particulate filters and regeneration modes like a diesel especially on direct injection. Everything is one step forward, 2 steps back by design. This is why I would live to see what is possible emissions be damned so we could see what exactly it is all adding up to.

The problem with VW was they cheated to gain an advantage. But what if you could build a small, fuel efficient vehicle that was just outside the emission laws? Well , you can.

Kinetic Vehicles

Jack McCornack provides plans and parts to duplicate his Kubota powered racer. It is capable of over 100 mpg with a more aero body. And it is very usable if not really a "race car".