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Old 03-31-2022, 11:23 AM   #11 (permalink)
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some 1st-approximation values

' don't know what happened to Phase, but I'll go ahead and share some of the preliminary data:
* To satisfy the 41-mpg @ 80-mph metric established by Motor Trend, the IONIQ's EPA HWY rating would be achieved at a constant 63-mph, under standard SAE conditions.
* If we accept Wolf Heinrich Hucho's lower limit of technical feasibility at, Cd 0.09, then, the IONIQ would be capable of 68.18-mpg @ 80-mph.
* Under this condition, the engine would recognize a road load equal to the OEM IONIQ @ 49-mph.
* The BEV IONIQ would return approx. 165-mpg-e @ 80-mph.
* One fairly recent vehicle which satisfies the Cd 0.09 requirement is the 2013, Team Polyjoule racer.
# 306 (permalink)
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Old 03-31-2022, 02:53 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerohead View Post
' don't know what happened to Phase, but I'll go ahead and share some of the preliminary data:
* To satisfy the 41-mpg @ 80-mph metric established by Motor Trend, the IONIQ's EPA HWY rating would be achieved at a constant 63-mph, under standard SAE conditions.
* If we accept Wolf Heinrich Hucho's lower limit of technical feasibility at, Cd 0.09, then, the IONIQ would be capable of 68.18-mpg @ 80-mph.
* Under this condition, the engine would recognize a road load equal to the OEM IONIQ @ 49-mph.
* The BEV IONIQ would return approx. 165-mpg-e @ 80-mph.
* One fairly recent vehicle which satisfies the Cd 0.09 requirement is the 2013, Team Polyjoule racer.
# 306
Sorry for the late reply. Was literally in the middle of a 3500 mile round trip road trip out west here with 6 dollars a gallon gas lol. Ioniq was just guzzling it the whole time. Warmer temps seemed to help boost a little when I got to Arizona, but I ran into so many head winds that tanked my mpg.

I wish there were some after market hood looking aero side mirrors. I definitely want to build a rear wheel spat, but I wish I knew how much of a difference it would actually make. Also I wonder if making an after market spoiler in the back that angles farther down and extended out a little more, then lips up at the tip would help reduce the wake a lot more, without making a full boat tail. I’ve noticed that the back of Ioniq is pretty big when it comes to wake size versus a Prius prime and Tesla model 3 and obviously every other modern sedan
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Old 03-31-2022, 03:01 PM   #13 (permalink)
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difference

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase View Post
Sorry for the late reply. Was literally in the middle of a 3500 mile round trip road trip out west here with 6 dollars a gallon gas lol. Ioniq was just guzzling it the whole time. Warmer temps seemed to help boost a little when I got to Arizona, but I ran into so many head winds that tanked my mpg.

I wish there were some after market hood looking aero side mirrors. I definitely want to build a rear wheel spat, but I wish I knew how much of a difference it would actually make. Also I wonder if making an after market spoiler in the back that angles farther down and extended out a little more, then lips up at the tip would help reduce the wake a lot more, without making a full boat tail. I’ve noticed that the back of Ioniq is pretty big when it comes to wake size versus a Prius prime and Tesla model 3 and obviously every other modern sedan
* Just pick a speed you'll be driving at, and a mpg you'd like to see at the pump, then we can scratch our collective heads, and see where it leads.
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Old 03-31-2022, 03:08 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
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* Just pick a speed you'll be driving at, and a mpg you'd like to see at the pump, then we can scratch our collective heads, and see where it leads.
Ideally I’d like the 60 mpg at close to 80. A lot of long stretches in Idaho, neVada and utah, the speed limit is 80 but everyone’s got their car on cruise control between 85-90 mph. Obviously there’s no way I could get 60 mpg at 90 mph, but it wouldn’t hurt to keep 50-55 mpg while going that fast in the open desert lol. Have you seen what that one company did with the hypereconiq they claimed gets over 80mpg?
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Old 03-31-2022, 03:33 PM   #15 (permalink)
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60 @ 80

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Originally Posted by Phase View Post
Ideally I’d like the 60 mpg at close to 80. A lot of long stretches in Idaho, neVada and utah, the speed limit is 80 but everyone’s got their car on cruise control between 85-90 mph. Obviously there’s no way I could get 60 mpg at 90 mph, but it wouldn’t hurt to keep 50-55 mpg while going that fast in the open desert lol. Have you seen what that one company did with the hypereconiq they claimed gets over 80mpg?
Thanks! Now we've got something to hammer on.
I've not heard anything about the 'hypereconiq' and 80+ mpg.
Are they hypermiling?
If so, that wouldn't equate to steady-speed highway travel.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I leave in the morning for a BEV out-of-towner and won't be home until Sunday evening.
I'll be back on the computer Monday, and can have some numbers to talk about then.
No doubt, other members will chime in, in the meantime.
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60-mpg @ 80-mph is technically feasible, however it will require quite a bit of custom fabrication, and, shooting from the hip, expect you'd be looking at extending the body at the rear.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you haven't seen the 2012 Coventry University modifications to the Audi A2, you'd probably want to. They dropped drag from Cd 0.288, to Cd 0.204, without adding a millimeter of length! A good starting point.
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Old 03-31-2022, 03:37 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase View Post
I wish there were some after market hood looking aero side mirrors.
It strikes me that they were popular on Asian econoboxes perhaps 20 years back and also possibly british stuff.

Jc Whitney?
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Old 03-31-2022, 05:22 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Cd 0.1208 is approx. solution for 60-mpg @ 80-mph

It's kinda slow @ EcoModder, so I went ahead and crunched the numbers based upon the 1st-approximation values.
1) 80-miles / 60-mpg = 1.3333-gallons/ hour
2) 1.3333-gallons x 111,836-Btu / gallon ( E10 REGULAR gas ) = 149,114.66 Btus / hour
3) 149,114.66-Btu / 2546-Btu/hp = 58.5682-hp gross input energy value
4) 58.5682-hp x 0.40 ( estimated engine thermal efficiency ) = 23.4272- Brake horsepower ( bhp )
5) 23.4272-bhp x 0.978 ( @ est. 2.2% accessory losses [ Argonne National Laboratory ] ) = 22.91188-hp
6) 22.91188-hp x 0.95 ( 95% transaxle mechanical efficiency [ Argonne National Laboratory ] ) = 21.766286-hp Road Load
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7) 21.766286-hp - 11.5347-hp (rolling-resistance [from original calculations ] =
10.231586-hp ( aerodynamics )
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8) 10.231586-hp = 117.333 feet/second velocity / 550- pound-feet torque/ horsepower ( 0.5 x 0.00238 slugs x Cd ? x 24.223-square-feet frontal area ( estimated @ 85.5% of gross area ) x 117.333 feet/second-squared )
9) solving left side outside parentheses algebraically: = 47.96069563 = right side of equal sign ( 396.8398168 x Cd? )
10) or, 47.96069563 = ( 396.8398168 x Cd ? )
11) divide each side by 396.8398168
12) 0.12085 = Cd (unknown)
or, Cd 0.1208 satisfies the condition for 60-mpg @ 80-mph.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13) Since we're talking about profile drag, examining the profiles of vehicles exhibiting Cd 0.1208 may provide insight into the architectures which generate this coefficient, or near it; and the kinds of features the IONIQ might benefit from.
Some will be Bonneville streamliners, solar cars, and SAE / Shell marathon racers, of shapes that wouldn't necessarily lend themselves to a passenger car:
* JCB Dieselmax , 2018, Cd 0.117
* Goldenrod, 1965, Cd 0.117
* MANTA, MIT, 1995, Cd 0.12
* Autonoma de Mexico, 1996, Cd 0.12
* Honda Dream, 1990. Cd 0.12
* MG EX 181, 1957, Cd 0.12
* Walter Lay, Model#22, 1933, Cd 0.12
* 'Baby 'template'', 2017, Cd 0.1209
* GM Sunraycer, 1987, Cd 0.125 ( as raced )
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Old 03-31-2022, 06:41 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerohead View Post
It's kinda slow @ EcoModder, so I went ahead and crunched the numbers based upon the 1st-approximation values.
1) 80-miles / 60-mpg = 1.3333-gallons/ hour
2) 1.3333-gallons x 111,836-Btu / gallon ( E10 REGULAR gas ) = 149,114.66 Btus / hour
3) 149,114.66-Btu / 2546-Btu/hp = 58.5682-hp gross input energy value
4) 58.5682-hp x 0.40 ( estimated engine thermal efficiency ) = 23.4272- Brake horsepower ( bhp )
5) 23.4272-bhp x 0.978 ( @ est. 2.2% accessory losses [ Argonne National Laboratory ] ) = 22.91188-hp
6) 22.91188-hp x 0.95 ( 95% transaxle mechanical efficiency [ Argonne National Laboratory ] ) = 21.766286-hp Road Load
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7) 21.766286-hp - 11.5347-hp (rolling-resistance [from original calculations ] =
10.231586-hp ( aerodynamics )
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8) 10.231586-hp = 117.333 feet/second velocity / 550- pound-feet torque/ horsepower ( 0.5 x 0.00238 slugs x Cd ? x 24.223-square-feet frontal area ( estimated @ 85.5% of gross area ) x 117.333 feet/second-squared )
9) solving left side outside parentheses algebraically: = 47.96069563 = right side of equal sign ( 396.8398168 x Cd? )
10) or, 47.96069563 = ( 396.8398168 x Cd ? )
11) divide each side by 396.8398168
12) 0.12085 = Cd (unknown)
or, Cd 0.1208 satisfies the condition for 60-mpg @ 80-mph.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13) Since we're talking about profile drag, examining the profiles of vehicles exhibiting Cd 0.1208 may provide insight into the architectures which generate this coefficient, or near it; and the kinds of features the IONIQ might benefit from.
Some will be Bonneville streamliners, solar cars, and SAE / Shell marathon racers, of shapes that wouldn't necessarily lend themselves to a passenger car:
* JCB Dieselmax , 2018, Cd 0.117
* Goldenrod, 1965, Cd 0.117
* MANTA, MIT, 1995, Cd 0.12
* Autonoma de Mexico, 1996, Cd 0.12
* Honda Dream, 1990. Cd 0.12
* MG EX 181, 1957, Cd 0.12
* Walter Lay, Model#22, 1933, Cd 0.12
* 'Baby 'template'', 2017, Cd 0.1209
* GM Sunraycer, 1987, Cd 0.125 ( as raced )
Thanks. I’ll look those up. Also check out bisimoto hypereconiq and the things they did to it. Hyundai also put the Ioniq on the bonneville salt flats too, but they didn’t mod it as much as bisimoto
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Old 03-31-2022, 07:44 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase View Post
I wish there were some after market hood looking aero side mirrors. I definitely want to build a rear wheel spat, but I wish I knew how much of a difference it would actually make. Also I wonder if making an after market spoiler in the back that angles farther down and extended out a little more, then lips up at the tip would help reduce the wake a lot more, without making a full boat tail. I’ve noticed that the back of Ioniq is pretty big when it comes to wake size versus a Prius prime and Tesla model 3 and obviously every other modern sedan
Build some mockups, get some yarn and tape, a manometer and tubing and pitot tube, and start testing. People speculating here or waxing on about hypotheticals will tell you nothing about whether wheel covers will reduce drag on your car, or differently shaped mirrors, or a spoiler extension at a certain angle, or whatever you want to know about, and how much. The only way to know is to build these things--cheap, out of cardboard or coroplast or plywood--and start measuring their effects. Only then will you know what they do and be able to plan what you want to make permanent and what isn't worth pursuing.
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Old 03-31-2022, 07:48 PM   #20 (permalink)
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For those following along at home : duckduckgo.com/?q=bisimoto+hypereconiq&ia=web


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