Open discussion on using TC-W3 oil as an additive

[Prophecy99]

Originally Posted by tjts1

9 pages in and so far nobody has been able to provide evidence that it is in any way beneficial to add 2 stroke oil to gasoline. Nothing. I understand the logic (even though I don't agree with it) about adding TCW3 to diesel engines with mechanical injection pump but a 4 stroke gasoline engine... seriously?

This is pure unicorn BS.

did you not read the first links in the first post of the first page of this thread?
they contain over 40 pages of evidence..... have fun reading because you obviously haven't

[UFO]

The points being made are anecdotes and impressions do not equal "evidence". Data from experiments showing statistically significant differences from a control, with well controlled variables constitutes evidence, and the the only reason this thread remains out of the unicorn section is that data should be forthcoming.

[Prophecy99]

Originally Posted by UFO

The points being made are anecdotes and impressions do not equal "evidence". Data from experiments showing statistically significant differences from a control, with well controlled variables constitutes evidence, and the the only reason this thread remains out of the unicorn section is that data should be forthcoming.

yeah yeah your technically right. and hopefully that data does appear.
i guess for some people factual evidence is the only way to convince people otherwise, and I agree it would be nice.

All I can say is everything can't always be translated on paper...
Im getting ready for my 2nd tank. with in a week.

[darcane]

Originally Posted by UFO

The points being made are anecdotes and impressions do not equal "evidence". Data from experiments showing statistically significant differences from a control, with well controlled variables constitutes evidence, and the the only reason this thread remains out of the unicorn section is that data should be forthcoming.

Check post #22 again...

The primary claim of TC-W3 oil as an additive is for lubricity. It also has high levels of detergents for cleaning, but I believe that's not an issue if you use a Top Tier gasoline. The study in that post makes it pretty clear that it is effective at significantly improving lubricity when added to diesel fuel and there is no reason that shouldn't apply to gasoline as well.

In my own use, I have seen no measurable gains in fuel economy, but that's not why I use it. I have also seen no negative effects of it's use.

[tjts1]

Originally Posted by darcane

Check post #22 again...

The primary claim of TC-W3 oil as an additive is for lubricity. It also has high levels of detergents for cleaning, but I believe that's not an issue if you use a Top Tier gasoline. The study in that post makes it pretty clear that it is effective at significantly improving lubricity when added to diesel fuel and there is no reason that shouldn't apply to gasoline as well.

In my own use, I have seen no measurable gains in fuel economy, but that's not why I use it. I have also seen no negative effects of it's use.

Lubricity in diesel engines is an issue for the mechanical injection pump and injectors. The pump is internally lubricated by the diesel fuel oil running through it. The introduction of ULSD has reduced the lubricity of diesel therefore some owner's of older engines not designed with ULSD in mind use ashless 2 stroke oil as an additive to extend the life of the pump. Depending on the engine, the mechanical diesel injection pump runs at 1,000-8,000 PSI. It is the single most expensive component on a diesel engine.
Your gasoline engine has an electric pump running at 43.5psi in most cases. If you have direct injection your pump is mechanically driven directly off the cam or crank up to 20,000PSI and is lubicated by engine oil. This pump is not responsible for injection timing like an old diesel pump. Pouring 2 stroke oil into a 4 stroke gasoline engine is a stupid waste of money and is likely to damage your catalytic converter over the long term.
Also keep in mind that 2 stroke oil will reduce the octane of your gasoline.

A typical bosch diesel inline injection pump.

[UFO]

Yes, I made the point early in this discussion that the need for lubricity in gasoline has not been established. Gasoline has next to zero, and all the system components are designed to not need it.

Even in diesel fuel 2-stroke oil has limited lubricity, not as good as some fuel additives specifically designed for diesel fuel. In my diesel I always use more than 2% biodiesel, which has lubricity second to none.

Maybe those of you testing 2-stroke oil in gasoline could test biodiesel as well. If lubricity is truly a benefit, you might get a better result as you can use less and have less impact on your octane level.

[Beau]

I truly do not understand why things have to be so contentious. So, either (1) it works to increase gas mileage, or (2) it does not work to increase gas mileage, or (3) it sort of works to increase gas mileage, or (4) it works to increase lubricity, or (5) it does not work to increase lubricity, or (6) it is a good use of a very small amount of money, or (7) it is a waste of a very small amount of money (although I would not think it was a stupid waste of money), or (8) it works sort of like a vitamin (so that immediate results are not evident), or (9) it doesn't work like a vitamin.

Although I use it, and have seen benefits; yes, including increased gas mileage, I do not see this issue as a crisis and do not want to put people down for using it, or not using it.

See how that "just get along" thing works?

[suspectnumber961]

We have a Unicorn Corral because certain people get their kicks by dumping on any mod where they can come up with an excuse to trash it. Probably as much a personality issue as anything.

My recent experience with installing a cone filter tells me...TRY the various mods in the Corral yourself....some mpg gains might be there....for your particular vehicle.

I'd recommend testing in summer after temps stabilize though...no sense fighting cold and snow.

Though it IS sort of debilitating to argue with the dumpers.....better to ignore them and go ahead and try something?

As far as top lubes go...they are probably less needed with modern gasoline fuel injection where the amount of fuel is well controlled and hopefully is in a fine mist leaning towards vapor.

Originally Posted by Beau

I truly do not understand why things have to be so contentious. So, either (1) it works to increase gas mileage, or (2) it does not work to increase gas mileage, or (3) it sort of works to increase gas mileage, or (4) it works to increase lubricity, or (5) it does not work to increase lubricity, or (6) it is a good use of a very small amount of money, or (7) it is a waste of a very small amount of money (although I would not think it was a stupid waste of money), or (8) it works sort of like a vitamin (so that immediate results are not evident), or (9) it doesn't work like a vitamin.

Although I use it, and have seen benefits; yes, including increased gas mileage, I do not see this issue as a crisis and do not want to put people down for using it, or not using it.

See how that "just get along" thing works?

[RH77]

Originally Posted by UFO

Maybe those of you testing 2-stroke oil in gasoline could test biodiesel as well. If lubricity is truly a benefit, you might get a better result as you can use less and have less impact on your octane level.

This statement sums-up one of the biggest benefits of such testing -- open discussion to allow more ideas and brainstorming. I know of some EM members using Biodiesel is this application. Perhaps something like this is the next test.

For the rest who have only skepticism with theories and not actual results or data, keep adding to your post count and beat your chest with the smug brow-beating. If is hasn't happened already, general pessimism will become ignored.

To me, this experiment/discussion has also been a Sociological experiment. Take a relatively inexpensive, low-risk, easily implemented test, and see what happens: from the vehicle itself, how others report findings (including validity and determination), and the overall reaction (both from those not testing and the test group).

It's disheartening, really. Take a piece of garden edging and slap it to the front of the vehicle and readers salivate in excitement to learn of results, and offer encouragement along the way. Dump an additive in the tank? I think we've seen the mixed reaction.

I'm ready for my 3rd tank, have years of stable Winter FE results as a control and temps to compare when the time comes to report. I remain unashamed to move forward.

RH77

[suspectnumber961]

Some have used inexpensive over-refined GMO veg oils as found in groceries as a top lube....I've tried it at 2-3 oz per 10G. Some farmers grow sunflowers and expel the oil for use in their tractors....combined with diesel.

Originally Posted by UFO

Yes, I made the point early in this discussion that the need for lubricity in gasoline has not been established. Gasoline has next to zero, and all the system components are designed to not need it.

Even in diesel fuel 2-stroke oil has limited lubricity, not as good as some fuel additives specifically designed for diesel fuel. In my diesel I always use more than 2% biodiesel, which has lubricity second to none.

Maybe those of you testing 2-stroke oil in gasoline could test biodiesel as well. If lubricity is truly a benefit, you might get a better result as you can use less and have less impact on your octane level.