On the other side of the pond....

[rickjames8]

Hello all,

I have been a lurker on this forum for a while. I've recently relocated to France and found some interesting things I thought I'd share.

First off, the vast majority of cars here get much better MPG than they do in the US. I picked up a 2000 VW Polo 1.4TDi (3 cylinder) for $2000 which seems to get about 55mpg with no mods and average driving style (not agressive, but not hypermiling). The turbo makes it easy to enter/exit the freeway and pass. Why is this engine not sold in the US???

Oddly, diesel is cheaper than gas. Gas runs about $7.50/gal and diesel about $6.50/gal. The diesel cars get much better MPG, so its a wonder they sell any gas cars at all.

They also have microcars known as "Voiture Sans Permis". Google it to check them out. Aixam is one of the bigger manufacturers here. These little 500cc cars are limited to 30mph and get between 70-90 mpg. They can be driven with no licence whatsoever (this law makes no sense to me) anywhere but the highway. Unfortunately they have a stigma attached to them that they are not real cars and just little toys for people with suspended licences.

Yessir, the other side of the pond is an ecomodders heaven.

-Rick

[MetroMPG]

Interesting stuff.

I've seen those no-permit microcars before in the Azores. Here in Ontario, it seems if you lose your permit, people ride around on e-bikes that look like scooters.

[euromodder]

Welcome to ecomodder.
And to this end of the Pond

Originally Posted by rickjames8

I've recently relocated to France

I picked up a 2000 VW Polo 1.4TDi (3 cylinder)

Great li'l engine.
Responds well to hypermiling, and will accept running at very low rpm.


I've had my sister's Skoda Fabia with the same engine @ under 4L/100km (> 59 mpg) even without really hypermiling it (i.e. no coasting etc )
It'll do 100mpg @ 70 kph on CC ...

Why is this engine not sold in the US???

"No market for it", and more profit on the bigger European cars that usually are sold at a premium in the US.
Emissions in certain states that won't allow diesels in cars.

Oddly, diesel is cheaper than gas.

Not in all of Europe though.
Usually, it's more expensive.
Taxes on diesel are rising to bring it more in line with petrol, so enjoy it while it lasts.

The diesel cars get much better MPG, so its a wonder they sell any gas cars at all.

Diesels are more expensive, both to buy and maintain.
With a particulate filter on more recent diesels, only driving around town isn't recommended.

They also have microcars known as "Voiture Sans Permis".

They are a bit of a misnomer though.

At least in Belgium you do need a permit (for a moped, A3), unless you're born in the early 1960s - AFAIK, it's similar in France due to EU regulations.

Unfortunately they have a stigma attached to them that they are not real cars and just little toys for people with suspended licences.

Err ... if France is anything like Belgium - and being all to closely tied, it likely is - you can't drive these things on a suspended license, as the suspension is for all motor vehicles.
(It's the right to drive a motor vehicle that is revoked.)

What does happen is that they are driven without a license by 50+ yo people, and folks who have had their license cancelled, but don't want to redo the exams to regain their car license.

Yessir, the other side of the pond is an ecomodders heaven.

You can get the more economical cars here, but you can't mod them as easily as in the US

[rickjames8]

Euromodder,

Thanks for all the great feedback.

I've had my sister's Skoda Fabia with the same engine @ under 4L/100km (> 59 mpg) even without really hypermiling it (i.e. no coasting etc )
It'll do 100mpg @ 70 kph on CC ...

What is CC? Crusie control?

Taxes on diesel are rising to bring it more in line with petrol, so enjoy it while it lasts.

Bummer.

At least in Belgium you do need a permit (for a moped, A3), unless you're born in the early 1960s - AFAIK, it's similar in France due to EU regulations.

Err ... if France is anything like Belgium - and being all to closely tied, it likely is - you can't drive these things on a suspended license, as the suspension is for all motor vehicles.
(It's the right to drive a motor vehicle that is revoked.)

I am pretty sure that they can be driven by someone who has never obtained a licence, moped or otherwise. However, you may be right about people with suspended licences NOT being allowed to drive VSPs. What I know, I have learned from hearsay, not anyone who is an expert on the matter. ;-) However, if you check the Aixam website, they seem to market it as though you can.
Market

I've spent the last 15 minutes or so trying to google the answer, but I can't seem to find any definitive source - just some people who say you can, others who say you can't. I'm curious, but not so much so to search beyond 15 minutes. ;-)

You can get the more economical cars here, but you can't mod them as easily as in the US

This is very true. I REALLY miss my car culture here. I visited some friends in Germany last week and really wished the French had the same passion for cars here as they have over there. You rarely see ANY type of modified car.

-rr

[rickjames8]

I've spent the last 15 minutes or so trying to google the answer, but I can't seem to find any definitive source - just some people who say you can, others who say you can't. I'm curious, but not so much so to search beyond 15 minutes. ;-)

I lied. I was too curious to stop searching.

So the answer is that both are true. You need a licence and you dont need a licence. It depends on the classification of the car. If its a "Light Quadricycle" and you were born before 1988, you don't need anything. However, most modern VSPs are "Heavy Quadricycles" and fall in to a moped category and need a moped licence unless you were born before 1958.

Automotive vehicles receive European approval meets the directive 2002/24/EC.

Car without a license or light quadricycle:

Under the legislation a car without a license is "a light quadricycle whose unladen mass is limited by regulation to 350 kg, equipped with a motor 4 kW (5.6 hp) and whose speed is less than 45 km / h ". This vehicle belongs to the category of mopeds and can be driven without a license or with age of the driver.
To drive a car without a license on French territory (Article R221-1 of the Highway Code), it is necessary to be 16 years old and distinguish two cases according to birth date of the driver:

- If the driver was born before 1 January 1988: the driver does not need a license or SRO.
- If the driver was born after 1 January 1988: the driver must hold the BSR option "light quadricycle" or license (motorcycle or car).

The heavy quadricycle:

Under the legislation, the heavy quadricycle to an empty weight limited to 400 kg for vehicles intended to carry passengers and 550 kilograms for the carriage of goods.

The motor must develop a maximum power of 15 kW (about 20 hp). This vehicle is assimilated to the category tricycles and motorcycles.
To drive a heavy quadricycle on French territory it is necessary to have 16 years and to hold licenses least A1, A4, AT, AL, B1 or "traffic license" issued before 1 April 1958. Equivalently all possible A, B, C and D are known.

Taken from: Voitures Sans Permis - Législation

[user removed]

European cars can get great mileage, but can you get from point A to B for 4 cents a mile in direct fuel cost? The better mileage is completely offset by the taxes on fuel, which might not be a bad idea for the US, except for the fact it would collapse our fragile economy.
Kind of funny when you understand that there are 44 motorcycles on this site with fuel logs, and a good portion of those are outside the US.

regards
Mech

[rickjames8]

Valid point. The US has the luxury of the cheapest gas in the world, yet people cry everytime there is a minor hike in the prices.

Oddly, even with the higher costs in Europe, my cost per mile is still better than when I was driving my 1992 Previa in the US (14-15mpg). A van I bought thinking that all 4cyl Toyota cars could expect to get something in the decent 20's mpgs. Not so. I didn't do enough research beforehand. However, doing research afterwards is what led me to ecomodder.com so theres your silver lining. ;-)

[some_other_dave]

Originally Posted by rickjames8

The US has the luxury of the cheapest gas in the world...

Far from it. I believe that Venezuela and several Middle Eastern countries, among others, have cheaper gas than we do.

Gasoline and diesel usage and pricing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



..... Which doesn't make your point any less valid, though ....

-soD

[some_other_dave]

Oh, a better site!

World petrol prices, compare gas prices, diesel prices| MyTravelCost.com

That shows that as of August 2012, 20 countries had cheaper gasoline than we do. And many more that are more expensive, including most of Europe.

-soD

[mcrews]

First off, the vast majority of cars here get much better MPG than they do in the US. I picked up a 2000 VW Polo 1.4TDi (3 cylinder) for $2000 which seems to get about 55mpg with no mods and average driving style (not agressive, but not hypermiling). The turbo makes it easy to enter/exit the freeway and pass. Why is this engine not sold in the US???

My guess is you havent lurked that long......
there are numreous threads discussing this concept (which is 'a non-starter')

where to start...........
1. europe and it's develpement is 1000 of yrs in the making.
THUS, roads were designed for horses and carts
2. America is several 100 yrs. Suburbs created the large car.
I really dont want to get into a history of civilization and the devel;oppment of transportation, but it's apple and oranges.
Look at all the failed european brands that are no longer in the us BECAUSE the euro version didnt sell. Fiat, MG, Opel etc
THen mix in the various govrnment regulations that various manufacturers decided to not mess with.

Funny, when I was in france and Italy, I was amazed at how much American product is consumed by the europeans. Just wander thru the subways and look at the ads on the walls. Films, Software, laptops.....the list goes on.

Sure, A jetta looks like a large car in europe. But all those mini cars dont pass the safty and emmision standards which the US deem neccesary.

The reason only the loaded models of the BMWs etc are seen in the us is because the "cost' to get the car here requires it to have a higher price.