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Old 09-04-2018, 03:44 AM   #531 (permalink)
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My parents had 2 Renaults which were disasters on wheels.
They used to bunch up failures until the car became undriveable instead of having them fixed one by one, as the cars would spend more time at the dealer getting fixed than being used. Then they bought a Honda Civic which did not have one single failure for 9 years, apart from worn out lamps and brake pads.
Even the 12V battery held up long (that was the part that failed after 9 years!) while the Renaults ate them.

My inlaws had a string of Lada's. Panel alignment? What about missing or wrongly fitted parts? What about a filler neck made from a kind of plastic that degrades with gasoline? They even rusted early, but not fast enough to match their technical and economical collapse to negative values.

My Insight is my best car ever but even that needed several small adjustments, and still there's enough that wouldn't pass strict scrutiny. 'Good enough' but not perfect.
But I'd rather have this than a perfectly aligned car that isn't pleasant to drive.

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Old 09-04-2018, 11:32 AM   #532 (permalink)
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I thought the teardown of a Model 3 which revealed how much Tesla had brought down the production cost, showing they can and do make them on a healthy profit, was good news?

That their batteries only use 10% of the amount of cobalt compared to other battery manufacturers, while performing significantly better, wasn't really bad either?

By the way - I have a motto: Only trolls use the word 'fanboy'.
I consider it tough love. I want Tesla to succeed, but I don't think giving them a pass on things we wouldn't accept from other cars is wise. They'll get better at everything eventually, and it should be demanded that they do so. As to the term fanboy, I'm not sure what else I could use

Why aren't all hybrids plug-in ready? Surely it can't cost that much to plop in a plug and run some wire? I'm obviously blind to something here.
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Old 09-04-2018, 01:37 PM   #533 (permalink)
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I consider it tough love. I want Tesla to succeed, but I don't think giving them a pass on things we wouldn't accept from other cars is wise. They'll get better at everything eventually, and it should be demanded that they do so. As to the term fanboy, I'm not sure what else I could use

Why aren't all hybrids plug-in ready? Surely it can't cost that much to plop in a plug and run some wire? I'm obviously blind to something here.
I think every car has its own purpose. You don't expect a super smooth ride and extravagant luxuries in a hard core sports car. Nor brisk cornering and acceleration from a SUV. Etc.

Tesla ticks several boxes at the same time: luxurious, fast, safe, practical, automated, integrated, emissions free. It isn't perfect in all aspects - but the combination is unique and unmatched.

Then, the first series was never going to be perfect.
But just as happened with the Model S; the build quality will quickly improve and some upgrades will be retrofitted if you bring them in.

Everybody has the right to have an opinion.
'Fanboy' is a label to put aside people whose opinion one does not like, or whose preferences one does not share. The 'boy' part may strike some as a homophobic insult.
I'm sure you did not intend that though.
We don't need labels like that. We can agree to disagree with respect.

Regular hybrids have a very small and light battery. My hybrid battery only has 0.6 kWh capa city; moreover, the BMS tries to keep its state of charge within the 40-75% range, as the high currents while accelerating/braking do the least damage to the cells in that range.

Plugin hybrids do need a much bigger battery to have some practical range, say like 8 kWh. Because it has so many more cells, the currents and wear per cell are much lower and the range restrictions less critical.
A conventional small battery hybrid with a plug could safely take about 0.2 kWh. That just isn't worth it.
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Old 09-04-2018, 07:33 PM   #534 (permalink)
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I have noticed virtually all the tesla fan boys don't own teslas.
I have noticed virtually all the tesla haters don't own teslas either...
I then have to wonder, who does?


I personally hate Tesla with a passion.
Just because they're money greedy, and controlling every bit of the process.
Although, I wouldn't be, if they were like Chevrolet, charging $30k for their models. But yeah.. Perhaps in the future..

Funny thing is, Tesla doesn't give a damn about who hates them.
They just need enough gullible people, throwing their money at mr Musk, so he can buy another yacht, and send a next gen tesla into space, for a future alien race, one gazillion lightyears away.
I mean, it looks good on a resume "I shot a car into orbit, but it got burned before it could reach Mars. Only cost my gullible moneysacks a couple of hundred mils! Nothing out of my pocket, because I need it for another useless invention, like electric yachts!".


That being said, Europe now has a good competitor to the Tesla Model X.
The Hyundai Kona, which can be gotten as an electric in Europe (not yet in USA).
And Mercedes is coming out with electric as well!

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Old 09-05-2018, 12:22 AM   #535 (permalink)
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Musk is Tesla, and for that reason isn't money greedy. He made $165 million selling Paypal, so was already a fabulously wealthy man. He spent $90 million of that to start Space X, and later $70 million of his personal money to start Tesla.

Sure, the man wants his companies to succeed but that is an end in itself, not the money.

There's plenty to dislike about Musk, including his Trumpian proclivity to send thoughtless tweets. He also appears to be purposely misleading and deceptive, though it could be that he overestimates what he can deliver.

One thing is clear to me; and that it takes a person like Musk to have any chance of challenging the status quo; having launched the first major US automotive manufacturer since about 1920.

I'm not one to hate people that happen to expose their faults. I dislike bad ideas and bad behavior, but don't write off a person simply for being human. It would take a thoroughly malevolent person, who intends harm towards others, for me to begin to dislike someone.
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Old 09-05-2018, 05:16 AM   #536 (permalink)
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Tesla lovers and haters...

Tesla made EVs cool, where EV's had a big image problem before: milk floats, golf carts, mobility scooters and odd looking small cars.
Under the hood their cars are amazingly advanced.

Enough good reasons to like Tesla, even if I don't own one (yet).
Personally I don't get any of the arguments against Tesla. Money greedy, really? If Musk cared about that he'd not have invested in it that much himself.
Controlling the process... well they started out with the Roadster by buying about everything that went into the car, but learned how suppliers kept letting them down, so now they manufacture most parts themselves. Cuts costs and gives them control over quality and supply. Bad Tesla!

Then Musk shot his Roadster into space. But it was a test flight for the rocket, which needed a ballast to simulate a payload. Instead of the Roadster it could have been a 1 tonne block of steel, it would not change one thing. But you still manage to give a negative spin to it.

I've been eyeing the Kona too of course. The Merc will be out of my price range. But I'd rather have a Model 3 than either, and I'm sure there will be many more 'gullible' people like me that prefer a Model 3 over them too.

In general: the more EV's get available, the better.
Except maybe for the Prius Prime. Once EVs become abundant people will wonder why they have to pay the same or more for a car that also has a gas engine, unless they really need the range and fast fillup. But then they'd probably buy a much cheaper pure gasser.
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Old 09-05-2018, 12:53 PM   #537 (permalink)
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+1. There have been other issues with Tesla brakes though.
This was addressed with an over-the-air update, that changed the way the antilock system worked. They fixed the brakes in less than 2 months, and without having to do anything physical to the cars.
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Old 09-05-2018, 01:43 PM   #538 (permalink)
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Why aren't all hybrids plug-in ready? Surely it can't cost that much to plop in a plug and run some wire? I'm obviously blind to something here.
Minor design changes to incorporate a j1772 charging door some where on the vehicle.
Other wise it's pretty simple. Might add a few hundred dollars max to overall production cost.
But if your hybrid has a tiny 1kwh or smaller battery or a very small electric motor that won't drive the vehicle much faster than 30 or 40mph it's not really worth plug in charging it.

I also remember reading an article about the 1st gen prius a long time ago, several years before the first plug in prius option was offered saying that Toyota didn't want people to start thinking you have to plug in the prius to drive it.
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Old 09-05-2018, 04:27 PM   #539 (permalink)
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Why aren't all hybrids plug-in ready? Surely it can't cost that much to plop in a plug and run some wire? I'm obviously blind to something here.
The charger is in the car, and it is the majority of cost to make a hybrid into a plugin hybrid.
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Old 09-05-2018, 04:57 PM   #540 (permalink)
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The charger is in the car, and it is the majority of cost to make a hybrid into a plugin hybrid.
And the larger battery that is also required to get any kind of useful electric range.

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