"The Volt" May BE SCRAPPED!- NEVER BUILT!!

[tjts1]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

(the S-Max probably weighs less than 4,000 pounds) -- and they ALL beat the Volt for efficiency, and even the S-Max (seating SEVEN people!)

A bog standard S-max with a gas engine and manual transmission weighs 3538lb. That goes up to 3900 lb for a automatic diesel. You can bet the series hybrid weighs well over 2 tons.
2009 Ford S-MAX - Exterior - MSN Cars
A C30 (30kw) Capstone turbine on its own costs $30,000. Capstone has built thousands of these over the last few years. Even at that price it has never turned a profit on any of them. The metallurgy is simply too expensive. I've been following the company for years through my work. Its turbines are inherently less efficient than the diesel generators they are trying to replace. Their 1 big advantage is the air bearing and single moving part which means the Capstone generator needs fewer man hours of maintainance than internal combustion generators. They are mostly used in cost is no object applications like far flug oil rigs where fuel is cheap and plentiful but man hours are expensive. CPST is a fun speculative stock with some interesting technology but in 8 years of production they've never been able to break into the main stream.
The 80MPG claim for the Capstone powered S-max included 40 miles on plug in electric power so the car really only traveled 40 miles on turbine power. Oh and thats UK MPG so more like 33mpg US. The standard diesel Smax can beat that by a wide margin.
http://www.capstoneturbine.com/news/...alkDL.asp?id=2
I tried to find the curb weight of the PML Mini 640HP but they conveniently left that out of every news release. But sure enough they touted the 15kg ICE everywhere you looked. I'm willing to bet its also substantially heavier than the regular gasoline mini. 80mpg UK claim is equivalent to 66mpg US
By the way, a standard Mini D sold in europe today gets the exact same 80mpg (66mpg US). On the same test cycle the Prius is rated at 72mpg UK (60mpg US) This is pointless.
Toyota

MINI - MINI Cooper D - Facts & Figures

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

Serial hybrid (when correctly done!) beats a parallel hybrid every time.

Ehh, no. So far we have established that a series hybrid is much more expensive, much heavier with essentially the same or sometimes worse fuel economy than existing diesels and parallel hybrids. The only thing we've established so far is that every serious attempt at a series hybrid has been an abysmal failure. The only advantage a series hybrid has is that it can in fact be driven on plug in electric power alone which begs the question, why transport around an ICE and generator when you don't need it?

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

A Prius has a 1.8L ICE, a generator, an electric motor, a transmission, and a battery.

No. The prius doesn't have a dedicated generator. It has 2 small electric motors connected to the wheels through a power split device that can also function as a generator. These are dual use components that can switch either power the wheels or generate electricity as the computer sees fit. Its a very compact and efficient use of space and weight that a series hybrid simply can't replicated. The generator in a series hybrid is large, heavy and only use part of the time. The Prius power split device also functions like a continuously variable transmission so the atkinson cycle ICE is always running at its most efficient point.
http://www.myprius.co.za/technical.htm

The series hybrid car is fundamentally flawed.

[Frank Lee]

...which begs the question, why transport around an ICE and generator when you don't need it?

Somewhere, in some Volt discussion, a GM engineer or rep of some sort mentioned EV "range anxiety".

That's the about the only way a series hybrid makes sense to me too- to have an answer to range anxiety.

I've been conflicted about Volt in many ways: price, fe claims, violating the K.I.S.S. principle, and the whole series hybrid thing. I have to try to remember that there is no one-size-fits-all solution, and different motorists have different conditions and needs. Volt is so far off from meeting my needs and desires I can hardly develop any personal interest in it. What I have to work at is imagining where it is an optimal solution. I guess that would be: if one is rich, needs to be an "early adopter" of "new tech" or make a statement of some sort with their car purchases, has a sub-40 mile daily routine AND ONLY RARELY ventures out further than that, so as to be able to almost always rely on the plug-in power; and they'd also not have access to a dedicated long-range vehicle.

Who is that???

Whew. I'd much rather have an EV-1.

Or... I know it doesn't have that idiot-proof convenience factor of dragging the genset all over creation with the vehicle at all times, but when I think about it, I rarely am away from home and all of a sudden OOPS, need to run a surprise long distance trip. I'd like my... let's say, 40 mile range EV to not be burdened by 1) the weight and inefficiency of a series genset for all that local running around and 2) the inefficiency of the series system... but if I wanted this one vehicle to "do it all" then perhaps there could be a "plug-n-play" parallel ICE unit that sits in the garage, waiting for that long trip. It would have to be on wheels or a dolly and, say, the business end of the vehicle opens up and you wheel that ICE power unit in there, it has a simplified interface with the vehicle so with the snap of a multi-pin connector it's all ready to plug-n-play, then I can go see the world.

...?

... an EV pusher trailer, only integrated so it isn't a trailer.



Or maybe then in long range mode, the vehicle doesn't really make use of the batteries, so why am I hauling those heavy things along? Do the plug-n-play modes (local <40miles and long distance >40 miles) also need to include batt pack removal/install?

Dang. It's looking like a dedicated local EV and a separate long distance ICE vehicle would be the best.

These guys have first-hand experience:

http://www.evconvert.com/article/ev-pusher

http://www.mrsharkey.com/pusher.htm

http://www.jstraubel.com/EVpusher/EVpusher2.htm


Engineering. It's all about compromise.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hi,

Here's the Mini hybrid with four 160HP electric motors, that I mentioned:


(click on image for link)

The ICE charger weighs 1/10 as much as the original 4-cylinder engine. There is no transmission or drive train, and no conventional brakes. If the hub motors were ~40HP each, they would weigh even less and they would use less power, and so the mileage would likely be higher.

Don't forget that diesel/electric train locomotives are serial hybrids! The latest freight train claim is they can move a ton over 400 miles on a single gallon of diesel.

[theunchosen]

Still the most efficient gasoline vehicle off the production line is the Honda Insight 00. Which I believe was a series hybrid......

I'm going to vote that there is no way the mini is lighter than a diesel equivalent. High-power/weight ratio batteries are much heavier than a fuel tank, engine and transmission. So the mini can only be lighter if it can only go around the block. The electric motors are at least going to weigh in at 50-60 lbs. The top end power to weight for electrics is around 2:1 so in the real world they probably weigh 80-100 lbs. combine that with the battery power needed to go 50 miles.... be able to charge it and do it again frequently... 400 lbs?

So they took out 400-500 lbs of junk and replaced it with 400-500 lbs of junk and now it can only go 50 miles... whereas before it could have gone 400-500 miles. lame.

Parrallel hybrids and EVs are only useful in city driving with no highway driving. Otherwise Series hybrid with IMA and virtually no battery pack dominates it along with the average gasser on a diet and with some modification. If someone wants to build an EV and claim its superior to a gasser.. then it had better be able to make the same range on a single fuel fill or they had better just say its a better city car(which we don't even know what its KWHr/mile consumption rate is so it might not even be close there either...because it costs me less than 10 cents a mile(both in emissions and price) now.

Comparing a car to a diesel train is moot. Trains accelerate(where a vast amount of fuel is consumed) very slowly(and almost all stop points are located on downward grades on purpose) and have such enormous components that adding a few hundred pounds to the engine bays to store the breaking energy when they stop is going to go completely unnoticed during normal locomotion. A car can't have the extra weight to provide KERS without suffering under normal conditions.

featherweight cars, with 1 liter engines, low to the ground with decent aero could fairly easily destroy EVs and hybrids on cost/mile and emissions/mile(if the electrical production average for that location is considered). They could also be cheaper to manufacture and sell. A lotus Evora is in the volts price range and does 30 mpg... and stomps it into oblivion on a high speed run... and probably gets better FE on that high speed run.

[tjts1]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

Don't forget that diesel/electric train locomotives are serial hybrids!

Diesel electric locomotives have nothing in common with cars. Locomotives uses series hybrid setup because they need infinitely variable gearing to get a 10,000 ton train moving from a stand still. It would be extremely expensive and difficult to build a mechanical gear box that could accelerate such a load. The diesel electric locomotive doesn't use batteries to store large quantities of energy. Its just a series drive system with an internal combustion motor, generator and electric traction motors. Also weight is a non issue in a locomotive. In fact the heavier it is the better in order to get enough traction on the rails. The first true hybrid diesel electric locomotives that incorporate batteries in the drive system for regenerative braking at just now starting to appear on the market.
GE ecomagination: Evolution Hybrid Locomotive

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

The latest freight train claim is they can move a ton over 400 miles on a single gallon of diesel.

ALL vehicles become more efficient per ton as their total size goes up. This rule is true for cars, trucks, ships, trains, airplanes etc. Also a train doesn't have to deal with constantly accelerating and decelerating.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by cfg83

In some ways I think you could argue that the CRX is "all butt".

We're obviously talking about different things here. You can't really see what I mean by "fat butt" from a profile. You need a top/rear view, which I can't find on a quick search, but if you remember, the CRX tapers from the doors back. In profile it's a good aerodynamic roofline (also making a roomy hatch area); from the top you see that at various heights it's either straight or tapers a bit.

The "fat butt" cars I'm talking about are comparatively slender forward of the rear wheels, but then swell out over the wheel area, exactly like a certain (and to my eye, unattractive) female body type. The look's often accentuated by styling cues such as body lines that slope upwards to the rear, rear windows shorter than the front, etc.

Since most of this "fat" is over the wheels, it doesn't really make for useful trunk area.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by theunchosen

featherweight cars, with 1 liter engines, low to the ground with decent aero could fairly easily destroy EVs and hybrids on cost/mile and emissions/mile(if the electrical production average for that location is considered). They could also be cheaper to manufacture and sell. A lotus Evora is in the volts price range and does 30 mpg... and stomps it into oblivion on a high speed run... and probably gets better FE on that high speed run.

I think we are already seeing this starting to become reality now. It appears, to me, that if things continue on today's path, that we could have a market of a lot of fairly inexpensive lightweight small gas powered engine cars that get CLOSE to the mileage of some much more expensive hybrids. In the end the market will have to shake things up.

[cfg83]

Jammer -

Originally Posted by Jammer

I think we are already seeing this starting to become reality now. It appears, to me, that if things continue on today's path, that we could have a market of a lot of fairly inexpensive lightweight small gas powered engine cars that get CLOSE to the mileage of some much more expensive hybrids. In the end the market will have to shake things up.

Presently the worst thing is that we almost always get the biggest possible engine in the cars that are sold in the USA. When I was in Europe I bought a car magazine that showed the engine offerings for all the different cars. It was amazing because almost every car came with about 4 or 5 different engine offerings, from thrifty to performance. In the USA we seem to get one or two engine offerings that are always biased towards the higher displacement. Go here and look at the Ford Focus offerings :

Ford Cars UK Website

I started configuring a Focus and found all these engine options :



NOT counting diesel or automatic, there are SEVEN drivetrain options ... Oh the Humanity, ! ! !!!!

CarloSW2

[Jammer]

cfg83:

That's interesting. I guess it sort of reflects the views of so many America worried about having enough POWER in their cars.

Gosh if I had so many options in a transmission and engine I would have to do A LOT of research before I could decide which arrangement would be best. I no longer subscribe to the idea that a smaller engine ALWAYS means better gas mileage, as I now strongly feel that often times a bit of a larger engine can sometimes give a driver more miles per gallon (I'm speaking of small engines in general, no V-8s or anything that large!). But I do believe I would get at least a stick shift, likely a 5-speed and I would eye the gear ratio too. From what I have observed the wrong gear ratio can cost a mile or two per gallon..

[Christ]

Frank -

I like the "SkateBoard" Idea for cars, except I prefer that it be interchangeable drive systems.

I think that a whole section of the rear of the car should easily be able to be removed, casters deployed, rolled across the garage, then the ICE/generator rolled up, hooked in, and plugged in, casters tucked, then ready to go. A 5 minute changeover for distance or economy, less time than most people spend figuring out how to use the key fob.

The genset runs electric traction motors, and regen braking/decel charge an ultracap to help with high load situations and extended hi-speed stints or faster acceleration times when necessary. (That truck that comes out of nowhere when you merge onto the highway, for instance.)

That's my dream. I've got a design, but it's long into the future, and is based on a single swingarm suspension, like on some off-road go-karts.