Why We Have No Wind or Solar Power

[MechEngVT]

I don't see the humor either. Wind and solar aren't feasible. Oil companies, AFAIK, don't own coal mines or uranium mines (many DO on both oil and gas fields).

My dad works in the electric utility industry for a small-ish local division of a regional power conglomerate. One of his former jobs involved him supervising/organizing storm response crews and field work. Most of his experience with power customers informed him that while people don't like paying for electricity, the only thing that motivates complaints (often vocal and occasionally violent toward the crews) is *unreliable service.*

Solar and wind are UNRELIABLE. You can't count on a clear sunny sky or a stiff breeze. You can't flip a switch and bring up wind or solar generation. They are neither suitable for baseload (core reliability) nor peak load (meet demand as demanded). That means they're just worthless.

Sure, you can throttle-back other power generation (making them less efficient) and absorb the output of solar/wind generation through the grid, but you can NOT eliminate a single megawatt of generation capacity whether it be nuclear/coal/gas/oil because you have to count on at least occasionally supporting peak loads without any solar or wind input. Anything less means failure to meet peak loads which means a VERY ANGRY population.

[NeilBlanchard]

Hello,

The sun will rise tomorrow -- solar power is completely reliable. How long will oil/coal/gas/uranium last; and what will we do when then run out? If we use them up, what will future generations do?

We need to spread out our gathering systems over a wide area, and we need a better grid to distribute the power. We need to have methods of short term storage. Solar heat can be stored with molten salt underground, air pressure can be stored underground, hydrogen can be split from water and stored, and EV batteries can be used to absorb excess capacity.

Distributed collection works for both wind and solar, and then there's geothermal sources, biomass, biofuels, wave power, tidal power -- a diversity of sources spread out of a wide geographic area can easily be used to meet our needs.

[Funny]

Originally Posted by MechEngVT

Solar and wind are UNRELIABLE. You can't count on a clear sunny sky or a stiff breeze. You can't flip a switch and bring up wind or solar generation. They are neither suitable for baseload (core reliability) nor peak load (meet demand as demanded). That means they're just worthless.

Last time I checked, there are a few windy and sunny spots in the United States, there can be more than one wind farm and solar farm, with a nuclear power plant or two to supplement. I also believe that the energy produced by the farms can be stored for use during off peak hours, or when there is a shortage of sun or wind. You just need a good foundation/infrastructure to get it going and then there would be no shortage of energy.

Your statements are like those of the people when electricity was first (when Edison first designed the grid) being produced for consumers, "the amount of DC power we are able to produce limits the abilities of our system to just enough within the city limits". Now we have power to 99% of the nation, all the time, so all we need is a reliable way to store and transport the energy and we will be all set.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by MechEngVT

Oil companies, AFAIK, don't own coal mines or uranium mines (many DO on both oil and gas fields).

Though some of them are invested in solar power: BP Solar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for instance.

[Doofus McFancypants]

I work for one of the larger companies working on alternatives ( i am NOT with big oil - but we are one of the other big players).

We are selling wind turbines like crazy - many are not the 1000's of unit wind farms but the 20 - 30 unit farms.

For the Reliability comment - there are places in this country where the WIND ALMOST ALWAYS blows - you need to remember these are 100's of feet in the air - on ground level you have trees / buildings that break up the airflow - but at a few hundred feet in certain areas - you have flow as pretty near to all the time as you can have.

I think the comment about how to network into the grid is a good point - you CAN throttle back the units to scale the amount of power produced ( or even make the blades stop altogether) so it is not so much a BASE LOAD all the time operation -- but we SHOULD be thinking of them as a NUKE - you get it started and you keep it running - let the Nat Gas fired turbine plants come up during peak periods as needed.

Solar has some technology issues yet - making the cells more efficient and less costly. But as we get there - i think you will see almost EVERY HOUSE with solar cell roofing shingles to collect what ever power it can collect - maybe it is alot - maybe it is alittle - but it will be SOMETHING to offset fossil fuel comsumption.

Steve

[Bicycle Bob]

Can somebody confirm that Altamont is now on-grid? Personally, I think that the best available solution to the intermittent nature of wind and solar power is pumped hydroelectric storage. It is reasonably efficient, and can use existing facilities. A lake that is silting in can still be dredged to give full performance for a few days at a time. If I build off-grid, I plan to hook my windmill to a water pump, and a generator to a pelton wheel, but I'll move that to the house forum.

[metromizer]

BTW, funny cartoon... I liked it :-)

Originally Posted by Bicycle Bob

Can somebody confirm that Altamont is now on-grid? .

Sorry jamesqf and Bicycle Bob, the Altamont Pass windmills are on the grid... I was sort of mixing past with current news. PG&E eventually built that substation in the late 80's-early 90's. I'm not suggesting any conspiracy. Back then, one of the owners was floating an interim plan to use that untapped electricty to produce hydrogen, and bottle it at the wind farms. PG&E got there act together and the rest is history.

But there's more news about those wind machines in the last 6-8 months. Several environmental groups have sued and won, won the appeal too, i think to get <some? all? not sure...> windmills on the Altamont Pass torn down. I don't know all of the particulars, or which farms, or which machine design the court action relates to, but birds of prey 'strikes' were deemed environmentally unfriendly and if I understood the program I watched corectly, some owners of windmills received court orders to tear them down and have been doing so.

Again, I don't know all the particulars, I don't know anyone conected to that industry anymore, all I saw was a short program on local cable that made my jaw drop... the program focused on the bird strikes, projections of numbers of killed hawks and other birds of prey (based on some actual carcass counting), and the lawsuit victory and the next lawsuit being brought to not only tear these 'bad neighbors' down, but to have them completely removed from the sites, cut up, and recycled (with oversight, or course). Reminded me of a UN solution

It would seem there is no apeasing some groups.

Originally Posted by Bicycle Bob

Personally, I think that the best available solution to the intermittent nature of wind and solar power is pumped hydroelectric storage. It is reasonably efficient, and can use existing facilities. A lake that is silting in can still be dredged to give full performance for a few days at a time. If I build off-grid, I plan to hook my windmill to a water pump, and a generator to a pelton wheel, but I'll move that to the house forum.

I once visited a foundry in the Sierra foothills, who's big claim to fame was Pelton wheel manufacturing in the late 1800's. They had examples of enclosed pelton wheels (double sccop design) that were claimed to be very efficient. I love the idea of storing the energy by pumping water into an elevated water tower, then using that to generate electicity for your home, say, at night with no wind. It sounds like less trouble than batteries... WOuld you close loop the system and use anti-freeze?

[elhigh]

Originally Posted by Blister

It's illegal to catch rainwater that falls on your own roof in certain parts of CO..

Excuse me?! Are you serious? That's amazing.

One would imagine that, in an area where rainfall is less than plentiful, any homeowner willing to take on saving rainwater would be congratulated for his ingenuity and thrift.

The way I see it, if I own the roof and am expected to keep it up, not to mention the land it sits on and keep THAT up, then whatever lands on the roof is mine mine mine and the local government can go #@C& itself.

[elhigh]

I've got to add, I live in a part of the country not known for its wind. Here in E. TN, a wind over 8mph is considered downright breezy, but most wind gennies are barely cranking over at that speed. That doesn't mean there isn't reliable wind, though. We have a small wind farm north of Oak Ridge - funded and installed by no less entity than TVA - and it worked out so well that they went and installed more and bigger gennies. Now I'm hearing rumbles on expanding it further. In the area where they're installed, the wind averages - AVERAGES, notice - about 14 mph. That's dead in the middle of the meat-and-potatoes kind of windspeeds the power people like to see.

[cfg83]

Doofus M -

Originally Posted by Doofus McFancypants

...

We are selling wind turbines like crazy - many are not the 1000's of unit wind farms but the 20 - 30 unit farms.

For the Reliability comment - there are places in this country where the WIND ALMOST ALWAYS blows - you need to remember these are 100's of feet in the air - on ground level you have trees / buildings that break up the airflow - but at a few hundred feet in certain areas - you have flow as pretty near to all the time as you can have.

...

Steve

Do you see lots of sales in Texas? Once when I was flying back to LA, the steward saw that I was reading an article on wind turbines. He told me that the incentives program in Texas was being used mostly by the rich cattle (and oil?!?!?) landowners. They would put up the windfarms and let the cows graze below. Because they have the land where the wind blows, they get a dual use out of the land.

CarloSW2