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Old 10-11-2018, 12:31 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bonestock88 View Post
A 15% mandate fixes nothing. I’d say that if all gasoline were 15% ethanol there would be a lot of older vehicles damaged or taken off the road due to incompatibility... a lot of modern cars would be okay with only a slight loss in mileage, but I’d rather see more blend pumps than a mandate of 15% minimum
You bring up a good point about older vehicles. Obviously, poorer people tend to drive older vehicles, so they would be impacted the greatest, not only in terms of having car issues, but also in terms of paying more money for less energy in their fuel. It's a regressive (hurts the poor more than the wealthy) mandate.

I'm with you on choice, and I'd like to see more options too. The thing is, the market is free to offer any percentage of ethanol (as long as it has at least 10% ethanol now). A mandate takes away the choice of the market, it doesn't broaden it. By the way, people can make whatever blend they want by mixing some ratio of E85 to E10, and some people do experiment with the ratios.

E10 caused a lot of engine problems and brought down fuel economy everywhere, and for what benefit? Show me that E10 had a net benefit, and maybe the argument for E15 would make sense. My next question would be why is E15 the ideal ratio rather than something else, like E85, or E100?

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Old 10-11-2018, 12:48 AM   #12 (permalink)
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E0 sounds like a nice and round number.

Does anyone know why this change has come up?
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Old 10-11-2018, 02:04 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xist
Brain-dead. Clever.

How do you feel about year-round 15% ethanol?
I was biting my tongue. That's what came out.

I have no use for ethanol. I have burned clear premium since I got the Superbeetle and it would kill the Dasher diesel.

Oh, 'feelings'. Ethanol or gasoline are fine on their own, but each has it's own combustion requirements. Compression and timing.

Why? International politics, just like fracking.
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Old 10-11-2018, 07:33 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
Ethanol is garbage. The net benefit doesn't outweigh the net cost. People are throwing their lawnmowers away every year because the gas can't sit over winter without collecting water. The hoses dry and crack because they weren't made for alcohol.
Can't they drain the tanks and store the fuel on plastic jugs without breather vents for the moisture to get in?


Quote:
It displaces food crops.
Not so far. Many residues from food processing could be turned into ethanol, and when it comes to corn-based ethanol the distillation-grain has its advantages when used to feed beef cattle and other livestock. Eventually, since most people nowadays eat more processed food instead of home-cooked meals, distillation-grain could also be used as a protein source for some food items that now resort to soybean-based protein which is more expensive and IIRC has a higher incidence of allergy.


Quote:
Sure, if this were Brazil I'd be all about ethanol, but this isn't Brazil, and we don't grow cane sugar.
Corn-based ethanol alone may not "save the world", but it would be pointless to single it out. Trust me, I'm Brazilian and used to ethanol-powered cars since I was a child.
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:55 AM   #15 (permalink)
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There is no E15 mandate. In Iowa E0 is at almost every station, +20% more expensive than E10. If you don't have E0 available it's due to a local/state issue.

I think Minnesota put 10% in everything except off road use only fuel and doesn't even label it.

Car's have been E10 compatible for a long time, anything with FI and a O2 sensor has LTFT to compensate for different fuel energy content, I've got many a CEL light for too much E85 back to a 1998 Stratus to my Cobalt CEL is on today, when the LTFT (long term fuel trim get over 25 or so), takes greater than 50% ethanol to get it for all the car's I've owned. Never once has one of them run bad.

One of Brazils sugarcane advantage is after they crush it to get the juice out, they burn the left overs to power the facility and sell excess electricity. Corn ethanol plants could do that with the corn stover, but don't at this point. Natural gas/coal is easier.

And they only have to plant it once every 5 years.

Last edited by roosterk0031; 10-11-2018 at 10:02 AM..
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Old 10-11-2018, 10:26 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roosterk0031 View Post
Car's have been E10 compatible for a long time, anything with FI and a O2 sensor has LTFT to compensate for different fuel energy content, I've got many a CEL light for too much E85 back to a 1998 Stratus to my Cobalt CEL is on today, when the LTFT (long term fuel trim get over 25 or so), takes greater than 50% ethanol to get it for all the car's I've owned. Never once has one of them run bad.
Nowadays the standard in Brazil is E27, and only one premium gasoline is E25. Since we also have E100 (actually E96h), there is no E85 here. But anyway, not even some grey-imports have had so many problems with the amount of ethanol.


Quote:
One of Brazils sugarcane advantage is after they crush it to get the juice out, they burn the left overs to power the facility and sell excess electricity. Corn ethanol plants could do that with the corn stover, but don't at this point. Natural gas/coal is easier.
That's a good point. But anyway, I must confess I'm quite surprised by your knowledge about the ethanol brewing here in Brazil.
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Old 10-11-2018, 10:31 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Found a couple papers by a professor at Iowa State yesterday, I have 2 kids there.

https://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewc...4&context=agdm

https://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewc...6&context=agdm

I'm just interested in the stuff. I work for a structural engineering firm, we used to do some work for a local plant that started making ethanol. And I do some drafting (editing P&ID, kind of like flow diagrams) for mechanical engineer that is consulting for a different much larger ethanol company.

Doing a little research on sorghum now, didn't know they made ethanol from that till yesterday and use the left overs just like corn to make Dry or Wet distiller grains for animal feed.

Last edited by roosterk0031; 10-11-2018 at 10:39 AM..
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Old 10-11-2018, 12:09 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Rack average price in Iowa for E10 is $2.16 + 0.307 in taxes = $2.47 per gallon, at the pump running about $2.70-85. $.23-.38 profit.

Rack price for E70 is $1.50 + 0.29 taxes = $1.79, at the pump it's $2.20-50, $.41-.71 profit.

E83 can be purchased from one manufacture for $1.10, local station to that plant for $1.89(July price best I could find) $0.50 profit.

If E85 was priced with the same margin as E10 it would kick butt in $/mile. 20% spread is what my FFV cars needed to break even and that's where they price it for the most part.

Edit: Future contract price is $1.29 so add another $.20 to the E85 margin. State wide average was $1.27 was last month. $1.13 low to $1.41 high.

Last edited by roosterk0031; 10-11-2018 at 12:24 PM..
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Old 10-11-2018, 09:48 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr View Post
Can't they drain the tanks and store the fuel on plastic jugs without breather vents for the moisture to get in?




Not so far. Many residues from food processing could be turned into ethanol, and when it comes to corn-based ethanol the distillation-grain has its advantages when used to feed beef cattle and other livestock. Eventually, since most people nowadays eat more processed food instead of home-cooked meals, distillation-grain could also be used as a protein source for some food items that now resort to soybean-based protein which is more expensive and IIRC has a higher incidence of allergy.




Corn-based ethanol alone may not "save the world", but it would be pointless to single it out. Trust me, I'm Brazilian and used to ethanol-powered cars since I was a child.
I should have more precisely said that ethanol mandates are stupid, not ethanol itself. Thereís a market for ethanol in fuels, itís just less than a 15% mandate which only serves to distort the market and benefit special interests. Take the corruption out of the equation and I have no problem with it
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:04 AM   #20 (permalink)
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It's all about the RVP, reid vapor pressure. In 1992 the EPA set the max allowable RVP of 9 psi to reduce evaporative emissions, but gave E9-10 1 extra psi. E15 didn't exist so it was not included.

E15 RVP is barely higher than E10. EPA is just going to give it the same 1 psi allowance as E10 to E15 so it can be sold to all cars year round.

Some state don't allow the 1 psi waiver and the refiners have to remove more higher volatile products in the gasoline to say under the 9 psi.

E15 has the highest RVP of any blend, it drops after that matching gasoline at E50. E85 RVP is 5 which cause the cold start issues. E70 is 7.


https://ethanolrfa.org/wp-content/up...6_12_Final.pdf

Ethanol Subsidy - aka Blenders Tax Credit. Just trying to figure out how this thing works. For every gallon of fuel a blender mixes they pay $0.184. For every gallon of ethanol they use the get $0.45 tax credit. So a gallon of E10 blend, net tax is 18.4 - 4.5. 13.9. E30 net tax would be 4.9, E50 tax credit of 4.1. E85 tax credit of 20 cents.

I didn't know there was an extra 18.4 cents per gallon of tax before the 29 or 31 I pay at the pump.

What I don't understand is why some ethanol plant in Iowa sell E70 during the summer. Unless the natural gasoline (70 octane) they are buying to mix it with is cheaper than their own ethanol.


Last edited by roosterk0031; 10-12-2018 at 11:58 AM..
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