Yeah we all know its a scam

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

I am fairly certain no one has gotten it to work.
Why would I waste time building an HHO machine, that is only proven to deliver no results and inconsistent and inconclusive results at best, then always have to tinker with it, adding water or doing what ever you do to make them go.
Then if you do get it to work the oil company has you killed.
Why would I bother with all of that mess when I can build an air dam once, in a day, for about $20, using low value scraps for most of it, never have to mess with it unless the lawn edging gets torn off and gain almost a full MPG?

Last week I was in Maine, the high temperature most days was well below freezing.
In that situation the air dam is not effected.
How does the water filled HHO machine do?

I am very certain HHO works when applied correctly. Many on these forums are certain it doesn't work in any way shape or form.

The proper electrolyte concentrations do not freeze until well below freezing. And, good designs are unaffected by freezing electrolytes.

[Arragonis]

Please excuse this interjection but I just want to try and understand HHO - I've read postings and arguments on it before but not really grasped what it is all about.

As I have it the idea of HHO is that your car's electrical system will produce Hydrogen from water using fairly simple chemistry /physics.

And you can then feed this Hydrogen into the engine.

According to some it can be used to reduce the fuel content but produce the same energy.

And/Or it can make burning of existing fuel better and make a bigger bang which in turn means less fuel needed in normal use and therefore more MPG.

The downside is that the production of Hydrogen requires more energy added than is released by the process and that energy has to come from somewhere which in a car is via the electrical system and ultimately from burning more fuel.

Is that kind of it ?

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by Arragonis

Please excuse this interjection but I just want to try and understand HHO - I've read postings and arguments on it before but not really grasped what it is all about.

As I have it the idea of HHO is that your car's electrical system will produce Hydrogen from water using fairly simple chemistry /physics.

And you can then feed this Hydrogen into the engine.

According to some it can be used to reduce the fuel content but produce the same energy.

And/Or it can make burning of existing fuel better and make a bigger bang which in turn means less fuel needed in normal use and therefore more MPG.

The downside is that the production of Hydrogen requires more energy added than is released by the process and that energy has to come from somewhere which in a car is via the electrical system and ultimately from burning more fuel.

Is that kind of it ?

Unfortunately, that is the extent of what most people understand. By the reasoning you have outlined, HHO cannot work and shouldn't. The simple analysis of energy in versus energy produced results in a negative outcome.

However, if you understand that combustion of long chain hydrocarbons is a complex series of partial reactions that decompose the chain before the ultimate release of energy as the constituents fall into the ash ( lowest energy state ), you might be able to grasp the importance of "seeding" the pre-combustion mixture with HHO gas which just happens to be part of the partial reactions. The hydrogen forms H+ and OH- radicals which interact aggressively with the fuel mixture. The National Energy Research Labs (NERL) is waiting on funding to conduct research on this seeding phenomenon with hydrogen.

They have conducted their research on the seeding effects of the other constituent of HHO - oxygen. Depending on the impurities found in an electrolytic cell, trace amounts of Ozone ( O3 ) are produced and NERL has found that amounts as small as 40 parts per million (ppm) can effectively accelerate oxidation ( combustion ) a measurable amount.

Then, there is the water vapor produced by most YouTube HHO generators. This is unaccounted for by both the proponents ( most of whom do not understand a large percent of their gas output is simply steam ) and opponents of HHO. Classic studies by engine manufacturers dating back to the Second World War show efficiency gains when miniscule amounts of water ( in comparison to the amounts injected to quench detonation ) are used. The gains are on the order of 2-3 % in BFSC. Small, but measurable.

The important aspect of HHO application is the environment right before combustion via spark ignition. Combustion is initially an endothermic situation. This is what happens right before detonation when a perfect storm of conditions causes combustion to start without the energy of a spark front. This is also the core studies of those who are developing Homogeneous Charge Compression Ignition (HCCI) engines. Fuel seeding is a pathway that is being pursued.

The bottom line is that HHO is not a simple "make it and bake it" situation. And it's not going to result in double the mileage. That's the scam. But, it can provide fuel efficiency gains in the 5 - 15 % range depending on the situation.

Why don't I produce one for the masses? Because the gains are not in line with the costs of making this work economically for the average consumer. There are more effective methods than HHO to reach such gains.

I am in the process of integrating one of our units into a family car just to show that it can work. The science is there, so it is just an exercise in engineering. The unit is an industrial generator not sold on Ebay. But, maybe I should sell it on there considering the prices people are paying for some of the junk generators.

[wickydude]

Arragonis, why don't you read through this:
Run your car on water? - it's a scam!

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by wickydude

Arragonis, why don't you read through this:
Run your car on water? - it's a scam!

I have actually had dialogs with him. He, and others at one point, had a million dollar prize offered to those who could prove HHO works. Of course, it included extensive "jump through these hoops" rules that would ensure none of the HHO guys would ever win. Things like an extensive run in of the engine and tear down inspections and certification for emissions. He is after the scammers of course. But, he is saying it cannot work in any way shape or form. Yet, he runs things in a way that one could never prove even a small gain is available. I challenge that it does, though not to the crazy degree so many people claim. It turns out he didn't have a million dollars for the prize. Some other group did, and their bank records show, at this time, that they would be unable to back a million dollar prize. He now refuses to have any dialog with me.

He is a skilled engineer with good work to his credit. And he is also seen as anti-social with injunctions against him and his country's government is after him for decades of tax evasion.

I have read his pages and I asked him if he understood thermodynamics as it applied to thermochemical reactions and it became clear he does not understand that specific field of science.

He had a YouTube page linked to other associated pages where he was offering a thousand or so dollars to anyone who could prove an HHO unit to work to himself or one of his associates. I told him he had to cover the costs if my unit proves to work - and those costs run into the tens of thousands. I would pay him if it didn't work as I claimed. He has banned me from his sites.

He has as much credibility as the scammers he attacks.

[NeilBlanchard]

Another point of contention with this is the myth that an alternator always produces a set amount of electricity, and if you don't use it then it just goes to waste. So, the thinking goes, you might as well use it to make hydrogen.

But as we all know, alternators do not always make electricity, and their output varies based on the load - so you cannot get something for nothing.

[oil pan 4]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

"jump through these hoops" rules that would ensure none of the HHO guys would ever win. Things like an extensive run in of the engine and tear down inspections and certification for emissions.

A valid test to confirm beyond any doubt it works and a tear down afterward to ensure the engines are not damaged is entirely too much to ask.

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

A valid test to confirm beyond any doubt it works and a tear down afterward to ensure the engines are not damaged is entirely too much to ask.

A 100K mile reliability test as well as EPA emissions certification doesn't have anything to do with the systems ability to produce a small gain in efficiency. It was just a way to say "hey I win because no one wants to take my challenge as I wrote the rules". Make it a simple test of efficiency gain. Devise a test that has a small enough resolution and show within this resolution that the system works or not. Is THAT too hard to ask?

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

Another point of contention with this is the myth that an alternator always produces a set amount of electricity, and if you don't use it then it just goes to waste. So, the thinking goes, you might as well use it to make hydrogen.

But as we all know, alternators do not always make electricity, and their output varies based on the load - so you cannot get something for nothing.

And I can show how you can take 144 Watts of power and use the output in something as inefficient as an electrolysis machine to change the combustion mixture to extract more of the energy inherent in the fuel - energy that is largely wasted by all accounts. The energy lost in hydrogen production is miniscule compared to the massive energy lost in waste heat. Capturing or minimizing this lost energy is a goal of many engine researchers. I do not think anyone would argue that this is not a legitimate goal.

Under the right conditions, the small output ( 1 or 2 liters per minute of gas output ) can concentrate the heat release of the fuel resulting in a greater pressure rise across the piston crown over the effective crank angle. If you use simple brake-mean-effective-pressure (BMEP) calculations, you can see that a small 1 or 2% rise in BMEP can yield significant power gains. Gains that are greater than what went into the electrolysis generator.

[P-hack]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

And I can show how you can take 144 Watts of power and use the output in something as inefficient as an electrolysis machine to change the combustion mixture to extract more of the energy inherent in the fuel

But that 144 watts is coming from a "maybe" %65 efficient alternator, being driven by a "maybe" %30 efficient ICE... So that 144 watts represents 740 "watts" of fuel.