Go Back   EcoModder Forum > Off-Topic > The Lounge
Register Now
 Register Now
 


Closed Thread  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02-27-2019, 09:23 PM   #5201 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
freebeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: northwest of normal
Posts: 20,169
Thanks: 5,657
Thanked 6,593 Times in 5,316 Posts
The principle of Least Work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5
I watch about half the videos linked by freebeard only because there's a limit to what I can consume while juggling other obligations and interests in a day.

As a thought experiment, let's envision humans going back to only what they "need". We're all living in caves, scrounging for food.
I try to limit embedded videos to what is [at least somewhat] on topic. Curiously, while you were posting that I was watching this (thirteen minutes on the Primitve Technology guy and how we take shoes for granted):



Did the extracted subtitles help?

Right now I'm listening to Lionel Nation, he's going nuts about Michael Cohen in Congress while the President is in *Vietnam* ending a 70-year war. He's really leaning into that black wall in a hole in the ground and the movie Winter Soldier and how we veterans were treated.

At midnight last night I watched Trump standing under a 25ft bust of Ho Chi Min overseeing millions of dollars of contract between Vietnamese airlines and Boeing and Sabra.

__________________

."Once men turned their thinking over to machines thinking this would set them free. This only allowed other men with machines to enslave them." Frank Herbert
____________________

Sadhguru: Yesterday isn't good or bad, it's gone.
____________________
 
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 02-28-2019, 12:41 PM   #5202 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
sendler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Syracuse, NY USA
Posts: 2,935

Honda CBR250R FI Single - '11 Honda CBR250R
90 day: 105.14 mpg (US)

2001 Honda Insight stick - '01 Honda Insight manual
90 day: 60.68 mpg (US)

2009 Honda Fit auto - '09 Honda Fit Auto
90 day: 38.51 mpg (US)

PCX153 - '13 Honda PCX150
90 day: 104.48 mpg (US)

2015 Yamaha R3 - '15 Yamaha R3
90 day: 80.94 mpg (US)

Ninja650 - '19 Kawasaki Ninja 650
90 day: 72.57 mpg (US)
Thanks: 326
Thanked 1,313 Times in 966 Posts
The Green Revolution of fossil fuel powered fertilizer, irrigation and land prep and machinery and processing and transport has more than doubled crop yields in previously underdeveloped areas since 1960. Returning to organic-permaculture style land use from the decline of fossil fuel and Phosphate availability either from depletion or "leave it in the ground" climate action, will result in lesser productivity. It is said that the Green revolution spared 1 Billion (1/3 of the world overpopulation) people from famine in 1970. We now have nearly 8 billion to feed.
.
.

.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Revolution
 
Old 02-28-2019, 12:43 PM   #5203 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
sendler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Syracuse, NY USA
Posts: 2,935

Honda CBR250R FI Single - '11 Honda CBR250R
90 day: 105.14 mpg (US)

2001 Honda Insight stick - '01 Honda Insight manual
90 day: 60.68 mpg (US)

2009 Honda Fit auto - '09 Honda Fit Auto
90 day: 38.51 mpg (US)

PCX153 - '13 Honda PCX150
90 day: 104.48 mpg (US)

2015 Yamaha R3 - '15 Yamaha R3
90 day: 80.94 mpg (US)

Ninja650 - '19 Kawasaki Ninja 650
90 day: 72.57 mpg (US)
Thanks: 326
Thanked 1,313 Times in 966 Posts
New Heinberg essay..."The bind we’re in is this: it is the economy—made up of all those billions of fires—that is causing climate change. Reconfiguring the economy so that it doesn’t cause climate change is currently almost completely a matter of theory, and, even if it is practically possible, represents a job of unprecedented scope and scale that would require nearly unheard-of political solidarity and almost incalculably massive investment and sacrifice (those “affordable energy transition” studies notwithstanding).

Meanwhile, most people are directly dependent on the economy for their survival. Thus, economic contraction or collapse (resulting either from climate change, or from efforts to avert climate change by radically reducing energy use, or from depletion of resources like oil, or even from some entirely foreseeable socioeconomic calamity like a massive debt default or terminal political dysfunction caused by increasing levels of inequality) would itself be traumatic. And for many people (certainly not all!), economic trauma might come sooner and be more direct and devastating than trauma from rising seas, droughts, floods, wildfires, and the other anticipated consequences of global warming."
.
https://www.resilience.org/stories/2...se-is-on-fire/
.
 
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to sendler For This Useful Post:
aerohead (03-02-2019), freebeard (02-28-2019), niky (02-28-2019)
Old 02-28-2019, 02:14 PM   #5204 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
freebeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: northwest of normal
Posts: 20,169
Thanks: 5,657
Thanked 6,593 Times in 5,316 Posts
Excellent.

Also an argument for Viktor Schauberger's implosion technology.

Quote:
Our goal would be a sustainable and equitable level of consumption for all. But the constituency for doing that is tiny. And doing it without unleashing utter economic bedlam would require rethinking everything about how the economy currently works.

We at Post Carbon Institute have settled on the strategy of helping build community resilience in the face of impending civilizational collapse. ... But if the latter effort doesn’t work, then grassroots community resilience building truly is the last, best fallback strategy. Theoretically, if done well (using permaculture principles), it could aid with reforestation and biodiversity protection. But at this late date there can be no guarantees.
They should get together with the Buckminster Fuller Institute.

Quote:
Have you seen Engorged? It’s the new streaming channel with 200 billion hours of entertainment—movies, music, sports—that lets you peer through other people’s devices to watch them watching whatever you’re watching. It’s so cool!
There's your problem right there.

[linky-dink? Asking for a friend. ]
__________________

."Once men turned their thinking over to machines thinking this would set them free. This only allowed other men with machines to enslave them." Frank Herbert
____________________

Sadhguru: Yesterday isn't good or bad, it's gone.
____________________
 
Old 02-28-2019, 03:54 PM   #5205 (permalink)
In the fasting lane
 
RedDevil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Nieuwegein, the Netherlands
Posts: 3,950

Red Devil - '11 Honda Insight Elegance
Team Honda
90 day: 51.64 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,676
Thanked 2,193 Times in 1,419 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sendler View Post
The Green Revolution of fossil fuel powered fertilizer, irrigation and land prep and machinery and processing and transport has more than doubled crop yields in previously underdeveloped areas since 1960. Returning to organic-permaculture style land use from the decline of fossil fuel and Phosphate availability either from depletion or "leave it in the ground" climate action, will result in lesser productivity. It is said that the Green revolution spared 1 Billion (1/3 of the world overpopulation) people from famine in 1970. We now have nearly 8 billion to feed.
.
.

.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Revolution
Funny, I was reading the Green Revolution link and wondering what it had to do with fossil fuel. Rice crops gaining a factor 6 in productivity through new breeds.

Then I saw the only reference to fossil fuel in the whole page:
Quote:
Most high intensity agricultural production is highly reliant on non-renewable resources. Agricultural machinery and transport, as well as the production of pesticides and nitrates all depend on fossil fuels.[71] Moreover, the essential mineral nutrient phosphorus is often a limiting factor in crop cultivation, while phosphorus mines are rapidly being depleted worldwide.[72] The failure to depart from these non-sustainable agricultural production methods could potentially lead to a large scale collapse of the current system of intensive food production within this century.
That raises some questions.
- Why are not ALL high intensity agricultural production highly reliant on non-renewable resources? There is a way not to rely on them, then?
- Agricultural machinery and transport, as well as the production of pesticides and nitrates could be electrified - if not now then in the near future.
- Phosphorus is a problem but not a fossil fuel.
- The failure to depart from these non-sustainable agricultural production methods could potentially lead to a large scale collapse of the current system of intensive food production within this century... so we must by all means depart from these non-sustainable production methods.
__________________
2011 Honda Insight + HID, LEDs, tiny PV panel, extra brake pad return springs, neutral wheel alignment, 44/42 PSI (air), PHEV light (inop), tightened wheel nut.
lifetime FE over 0.17 Gmeter or 0.1 Mmile.



Investors woes:
"In hindsight, I should have placed a bet on the horse that won the race"
"In hindsight, I should have bet more on that horse"
 
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to RedDevil For This Useful Post:
aerohead (03-02-2019), NeilBlanchard (03-01-2019)
Old 02-28-2019, 04:17 PM   #5206 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
sendler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Syracuse, NY USA
Posts: 2,935

Honda CBR250R FI Single - '11 Honda CBR250R
90 day: 105.14 mpg (US)

2001 Honda Insight stick - '01 Honda Insight manual
90 day: 60.68 mpg (US)

2009 Honda Fit auto - '09 Honda Fit Auto
90 day: 38.51 mpg (US)

PCX153 - '13 Honda PCX150
90 day: 104.48 mpg (US)

2015 Yamaha R3 - '15 Yamaha R3
90 day: 80.94 mpg (US)

Ninja650 - '19 Kawasaki Ninja 650
90 day: 72.57 mpg (US)
Thanks: 326
Thanked 1,313 Times in 966 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedDevil View Post
That raises some questions.
- Why are not ALL high intensity agricultural production highly reliant on non-renewable resources? There is a way not to rely on them, then?
So you want to nitpick between the words "most" and "all" to feel better? It has been very interesting for me to watch how confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance play out in these discussions. My own reactions included.
.
Battery electrification of industrial farm equipment and truck transport is quite unlikely to allow the same scale of production that is feeding the world now.
.
.

.
.
570 Liters of diesel per day = 5,700 kWh per day. Even if you cut that by2.5 for the extra efficiency of electric motors with round trip losses you get 2,300 kWh per day for a large size farm machine. 12 Tesla grid scale 200kWh powerpacks per day to hot swap in and out. for just one tractor. We are going to need to start making a lot of wire to get all of this power around.
 
The Following User Says Thank You to sendler For This Useful Post:
aerohead (03-02-2019)
Old 02-28-2019, 04:59 PM   #5207 (permalink)
Human Environmentalist
 
redpoint5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 9,273

Acura TSX - '06 Acura TSX
90 day: 28.24 mpg (US)

Lafawnda - '01 Honda CBR600 F4i
90 day: 47.32 mpg (US)

Big Yeller - '98 Dodge Ram 2500 base
90 day: 21.82 mpg (US)

Prius Plug-in - '12 Toyota Prius Plug-in
90 day: 57.64 mpg (US)

Mazda CX-5 - '17 Mazda CX-5 Touring
90 day: 26.85 mpg (US)
Thanks: 3,220
Thanked 3,546 Times in 2,645 Posts
As I've said, it's not like we're going to sit around getting dumber in the meantime. Automation will help tremendously. Tractors will be automated in the future, meaning they can work/charge 24/7. Even if they don't go electric, automating them will mean we need fewer of them to perform the same amount of work. There's that sort of resource savings that will take place in most industries.

Automation will bring along easier/quicker resource depletion though. As the cost to produce something approaches zero, the consumption increases.

We'll solve the energy problem one day, probably right about the same time we see massive increases in robotic/autonomous work. The final problem to solve will be expending energy to atomically modify material into whatever we need. I expect the first 2 to occur in my lifetime, but replicator-like manipulation of atomic structure may come after.
__________________
Gas and Electric Vehicle Cost of Ownership Calculator







Give me absolute safety, or give me death!
 
Old 02-28-2019, 06:29 PM   #5208 (permalink)
EV convert
 
oil pan 4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: NewMexico (USA)
Posts: 9,547

Sub - '84 Chevy Diesel Suburban C10
SUV
90 day: 19.5 mpg (US)

camaro - '85 Chevy Camaro Z28

Riot - '03 Kia Rio POS
Team Hyundai
90 day: 30.21 mpg (US)

Bug - '01 VW Beetle GLSturbo
90 day: 26.43 mpg (US)

Sub2500 - '86 GMC Suburban C2500
90 day: 11.95 mpg (US)

Snow flake - '11 Nissan Leaf SL
SUV
90 day: 141.63 mpg (US)
Thanks: 228
Thanked 3,122 Times in 2,442 Posts
The house climate change hearing has ended.
Because no democrats bothered to show up.
Hahahahahahahabbaba!
Yeah they seem like they are really convinced climate change is so dangerous. They say they care but their actions paint a completly different picture.
This is a perfect example of typically of believer behavior.
Remember how I said the climate change movement is falling apart, this is only the beginning.
__________________
1984 chevy suburban, custom made 6.5L diesel turbocharged with a Garrett T76 and Holset HE351VE, 22:1 compression 13psi of intercooled boost.
1989 firebird mostly stock. Aside from the 6-speed manual trans, corvette gen 5 front brakes, 1LE drive shaft, 4th Gen disc brake fbody rear end.
2011 leaf SL, white, portable 240v CHAdeMO, trailer hitch, new batt as of 2014.

Last edited by oil pan 4; 02-28-2019 at 06:37 PM..
 
The Following User Says Thank You to oil pan 4 For This Useful Post:
freebeard (02-28-2019)
Old 02-28-2019, 07:37 PM   #5209 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
freebeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: northwest of normal
Posts: 20,169
Thanks: 5,657
Thanked 6,593 Times in 5,316 Posts
Quote:
The house climate change hearing has ended.
Because no democrats bothered to show up.
Hahahahahahahabbaba!


Senator Feinstein isn't in the house, but she's telling 12-year-olds that didn't vote for her they can pound sand.



Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5
There's that sort of resource savings that will take place in most industries.

Automation will bring along easier/quicker resource depletion though. As the cost to produce something approaches zero, the consumption increases.

We'll solve the energy problem one day, probably right about the same time we see massive increases in robotic/autonomous work.
Three-story vertical farms with Alfalfa sprouts and other greens robotically packaged and dispensed at street level. Bring the production to the point of use.
__________________

."Once men turned their thinking over to machines thinking this would set them free. This only allowed other men with machines to enslave them." Frank Herbert
____________________

Sadhguru: Yesterday isn't good or bad, it's gone.
____________________
 
Old 02-28-2019, 07:43 PM   #5210 (permalink)
Human Environmentalist
 
redpoint5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 9,273

Acura TSX - '06 Acura TSX
90 day: 28.24 mpg (US)

Lafawnda - '01 Honda CBR600 F4i
90 day: 47.32 mpg (US)

Big Yeller - '98 Dodge Ram 2500 base
90 day: 21.82 mpg (US)

Prius Plug-in - '12 Toyota Prius Plug-in
90 day: 57.64 mpg (US)

Mazda CX-5 - '17 Mazda CX-5 Touring
90 day: 26.85 mpg (US)
Thanks: 3,220
Thanked 3,546 Times in 2,645 Posts
I hope I live to see the day... but then I'll always be wondering what's around the corner.

__________________
Gas and Electric Vehicle Cost of Ownership Calculator







Give me absolute safety, or give me death!
 
Closed Thread  Post New Thread


Tags
lies, opinion, reality, scam

Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com