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Old 02-24-2019, 09:05 AM   #5101 (permalink)
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Yes the BigF'nBattery is a gold mine for it's owner's. It is making a fortune off of the backs of the consumers due to the extremely high volatility of the electricity pricing in South Australia due to having prematurely retired too much of their thermal generation. SA is a very small market, using only 2GW or so which is less than some big cities. Even being that small, the scale of storage needed to cover just 10 hours would be another 200 Big batteries. At an install rate of 4/ year is 50 years. Except that they only last 20 years. So after the 20th year you would have to start averaging 10/ year to get that amount of storage built and rebuilt.
.
Or 350,000 EV's pluged into Vehicle to Grid. 1,000,000 cars if they only wanted to give up part of their charge. At least then the car owner could rake in the cash.
.
Scale.
.
NY state or Californina use 10-15X this amount. The USA uses 300X. Currently. Not including rolling in all of the energy for transitioning in all of the personal cars to electric. Which would almost double the demand again.
.
To electrify every aspect of society of society today, not accounting for any growth, the world needs to increase it's electrical production 3X while eliminating all carbon fueled sources. So far, wind and solar build out are not even keeping up with growth. Let alone replacing anything. Let alone another 3X for the conversion.
.
Do the math.


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Old 02-24-2019, 12:22 PM   #5102 (permalink)
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Yeah if me and my wife both drove electric cars our power bill would almost double.
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Old 02-24-2019, 03:18 PM   #5103 (permalink)
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Today on Slashdot:

hardware.slashdot.org:New Material Can Soak Up Uranium From Seawater

Comments suggest that the cost is within the range of fluctuation of land-based mining of Uranium. But....

Quote:
And of course, with Thorium we have far larger reserves than Uranium and since we burn up the common isotope of Thorium we end up with far more energy per amount of raw material and a 300 years supply of the stuff is sitting around in slag heaps across the world and that doesn't count all the huge piles of the stuff near every rare earth mine. So no, there is no way we are running out of nuclear fuel anytime soon. Try doing this with any other energy source and you either get climate change (fossil fuels) or you have to ramp up mining to an absurd degree to get the raw materials you need.
https://hardware.slashdot.org/commen...6&cid=58170692
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Old 02-24-2019, 03:37 PM   #5104 (permalink)
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The problem is solved as far as I'm concerned.
Eventually the believers will reach the same conclusion.
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Old 02-24-2019, 03:44 PM   #5105 (permalink)
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In the meanwhile we have wasted 30 years in the development and rollout of molten fuel Gen4 reactors. Now it is just about too late.
 
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Old 02-24-2019, 04:40 PM   #5106 (permalink)
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Quote:
Now it is just about too late.
Is it?

Have 15 minutes to spare? Here's the last 20 minutes of Episode 429, viewable at 1.5x:

https://youtu.be/uvFtRv9PILw?t=1960

The first half hour is an analysis of the possibility that Eddie Johnsons's awesome speech in Chicago might (20% chance) break the TDS fever the country has been suffering for the last few years. Wouldn't that be nice?
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Old 02-24-2019, 05:06 PM   #5107 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sendler View Post
Yes the BigF'nBattery is a gold mine for it's owner's. It is making a fortune off of the backs of the consumers due to the extremely high volatility of the electricity pricing in South Australia due to having prematurely retired too much of their thermal generation. ,,, ,,, ,,,
You should really actually read that link about the Hornsdale battery.
Neoen used the battery to break the monopoly of the emergency gas generation kartel that drove the electricity price up more than 10,000% over cost price during planned shutdowns, saving them millions each time and $40 million over the first year alone.
Quote:
Has contributed to the removal of the requirement for a 35 MW local Frequency Control Ancillary Service (FCAS), saving nearly $40 million per year in typical annual costs
Has reduced the South Australian regulation FCAS price by 75% while also providing these services for other regions
Provides a premium contingency service with response time of less than 100 milliseconds
Helps protect South Australia from being separated from the National Electricity Market
Is key to the Australian Energy Market Operator’s (AEMO) and ElectraNet’s System Integrity Protection Scheme (SIPS) which protects the SA-VIC Heywood Interconnector from overload.
That's not making a fortune off the backs of consumers. That instead is lowering electricity costs while providing a much more reliable service.

It has a ROI rate of less than 20 months...
That's the whole point. Nothing in the power supply industry comes close. It just works.
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Old 02-24-2019, 06:01 PM   #5108 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedDevil View Post
You should really actually read that link about the Hornsdale battery.
Neoen used the battery to break the monopoly of the emergency gas generation kartel that drove the electricity price up more than 10,000% over cost price during planned shutdowns, saving them millions each time and $40 million over the first year alone.

.
I'm sorry but again you are being misled. I have seen data on the BigBattery as was posted on another forum by someone who lives there and will share it here if I can find it again but I can tell you this from memory: A 100MW battery does not even make a visible dent in any situation of a 2GW grid. Even if it was ever used at a 1C discharge rate. Which we have never seen since some brief tests during commisioning. There was a brown out event when one of the thermal generators suddenly went offline due to extreme unmet demand and the BigBattery was seen to chip in 50 MW in brief spurts off and on for 2 hours. Mining the $2,000/ MWh peaks and really making only an intermittent 2.5% contribution. 50MW is hardly going to break the backs of any thermal supply in a 2GW grid that is only having problems with frequency support due to having prematurely shuttered too much of their previously reliable thermal generation in favor of unreliable wind.
 
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Old 02-24-2019, 06:05 PM   #5109 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freebeard View Post
Is it?
I was referring more to the fast approaching energy trap.
.
https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/10/the-energy-trap/
.
 
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Old 02-24-2019, 06:11 PM   #5110 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sendler View Post
I'm sorry but again you are being misled. I have seen data on the BigBattery as was posted on another forum by someone who lives there and will share it here if I can find it again but I can tell you this from memory: A 100MW battery does not even make a visible dent in any situation of a 2GW grid. Even if it was ever used at a 1C discharge rate. Which we have never seen since some brief tests during commisioning. There was a brown out event when one of the thermal generators suddenly went offline due to extreme unmet demand and the BigBattery was seen to chip in 50 MW in brief spurts off and on for 2 hours. Mining the $2,000/ MWh peaks and really making only an intermittent 2.5% contribution. 50MW is hardly going to break the backs of any thermal supply in a 2GW grid that is only having problems with frequency support due to having prematurely shuttered too much of their previously reliable thermal generation in favor of unreliable wind.
Why don't you get your link first and then post. The facts are in the articles I linked to.

The Hornsdale battery is NOT meant to be the sole supplier of backup power for a substantial duration in case of a big power failure.
If you think I believe it is, I understand why you think I'm misled. But I repeat, that's not the main goal of the battery.
Rather, it is meant to stabilize the grid and limit energy cost fluctuations - and does that very effectively.

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