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Old 09-12-2019, 02:09 PM   #6851 (permalink)
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duckduckgo.com/?q=greta+thunberg+autism

Autists rule. But where did she get that sailboat?
A (British?) sailing race team offered to take her and her father here to the US, and back.

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Old 09-12-2019, 02:14 PM   #6852 (permalink)
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The devil is in the details. It's not enough to say we have to do something about climate change. What to do, and the ramifications of doing that action are important. There's no getting around the fact that the only 2 ways to massively reduce consumption are to either reduce the planetary human population, or to reduce per capita wealth/consumption.

What is implied in her message is that a particular group of people (climate activists) should wield the power necessary to accomplish their objectives. It assumes they have the most complete understanding of the world and our place in it.

I consider myself to be an environmentalists, but the thing that concerns me the most about "activists" is that many seem to place a greater value on mother earth, nature, or creatures other than humans; as if nature is virtuous, humans are not, and we're also somehow not of nature. The reason I'm an environmentalist is because I'm a humanist, not for "environments" sake.

So, any action we take now must be primarily in consideration of people living now, but also in consideration of future generations. The reason people that exist are more important than those that don't should be obvious; it's along the lines of "a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush".
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Old 09-12-2019, 05:16 PM   #6853 (permalink)
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Future generations sounds like counting your chickens before they hatch.
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Old 09-12-2019, 05:27 PM   #6854 (permalink)
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I've been kicked out of the gene pool since the mid-1980s so for me it's OPP (Other People's Progeny).
Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5
the only 2 ways to massively reduce consumption are to either reduce the planetary human population, or to reduce per capita wealth/consumption.
The third? Relocation. One SpaceX Starship at a time.
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Old 09-12-2019, 05:39 PM   #6855 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
Future generations sounds like counting your chickens before they hatch.
It might be considering chickens before they hatch, but not counting them. Our ability to envision the future we want and make it happen is among the most unique features of our species.

My point is that a plan of action now requires proven solutions now. That can be adjusted in the future as things change, but the now plan must include only now solutions.

My attitude towards my body thus far has been that I can wear it out because technology in the future is going to solve all my problems. Well, there's no good solution for my pulverized L5-S1 disc even though I'm now living in the future. Would have been a better plan to have preserved the integrity of my existing body than expect replacement parts.
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Old 09-12-2019, 05:51 PM   #6856 (permalink)
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I have first hand experience with the next generation - my kids.
They don't care for big things like cars. They really don't care for things period.
They do care for utility - mainly the utility that comes with smartphones and tablets. My daughter was saving for a tablet and fully willing to work for it if need be - no matter how long or hard. After a while my son also got on the band wagon except for the work thing. We bought them a couple of good tablets, half paid with their own savings. They are happy with no regrets whatsoever.

They do care about the environment. I sometimes ask them whether that's because somebody (a.k.a. school) told them to but they insist that they want that themselves, regardless what other people say or do. And if they accidentally leave the tap running or a light on they feel bad about it when they realize it... and I realize how different it was when I was young. Sure I did not (usually) let the tap run unnecessary, but the concern then was money wasted.
My kids don't care about money (except as a means to buy them utilities), but if something is bad for the environment that moves them.
I drive relatively slow to save gas, they never complain. If once in a while I do get up to speed with the faster traffic then they'll comment. They really want to do good, for whatever reason.

And they do have reasons; if the sea level is a meter higher at the end of the century they will probably be around to endure that. The last time the average global temperature was 2 to 3 degrees above 1900 level the sea level was 14 to 16 meters higher than now.
It won't get that high in one century, but even a meter or 2 would flood all current sea ports and many of our metropoles and farmland. Many of the current rich farmlands are in the river deltas at sea level. If the sea rises all of those river deltas flood over; it will take thousands of years before new deltas form at the new level, and it won't happen at all until the rise stops.

Luckily the next generation does not care at all for big things that go broom broom. But we still do, so they will face the consequences of our decisions.
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Old 09-12-2019, 06:41 PM   #6857 (permalink)
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I certainly think my perspective would be different if much of my country already was below sea level, and the rest of it not much above.

My guess is that VR will vastly reduce consumption. Anything that occupies time will cause a reduction in birth rates and in consumption in general, and I think VR/AR will be very addicting.

I've got few specific consumer goals in mind. I (mostly) joke about buying a helicopter, and sometimes think I might get serious about a powered paraglider... but I don't have time for those things at the moment. My purchases are mostly made to save time and make daily tasks easier. There's a space that begs to be a home theater, so I did buy a projector and I need to find some couches on Craigslist. Oh, I would buy an EUC (electric Unicycle) if one came up for the right price.

How much is consumerism a cultural thing, and how much is genetic? My sister is 7 years younger and plays the consumer game as well as anyone. She has a new 4runner and her husband has a boat and truck to pull it.

EDIT- Regarding Greta; society has done our youth wrong if bright kids like that are losing weight due to depression caused by global warming despair. 15 year olds should not be experiencing deep depression. You may be tempted to say the depression is rational given the circumstances, but it is not. You think 15 year olds had crushing depression back in the darker ages where tribal war was constant and life expectancy was extraordinarily low?

She broke free of depression by finding meaning, which is the very thing modern life has robbed its people of.
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Old 09-12-2019, 08:26 PM   #6858 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4
Future generations sounds like counting your chickens before they hatch.
If those chickens hatch, you'd better have accounted for them. Fuller talked about wealth as forward days added to our lives:
Quote:
"Wealth is our organised capability to cope effectively with the environment to sustain our healthy regeneration and decreasing both the physical and metaphysical restrictions of the forward days of our lives." from Buckminster Fuller - Operating manual for Spaceship Earth
Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5
Would have been a better plan to have preserved the integrity of my existing body than expect replacement parts.
I've been waiting for 20 years for teeth grown from stem cells. Apparently there is too much money to be made by not rocking that boat.
Quote:
She broke free of depression by finding meaning, which is the very thing modern life has robbed its people of.
There's a bot that will speak that text in Jordan Peterson's voice.
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Old 09-13-2019, 05:03 AM   #6859 (permalink)
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There's always things to get depressed about. When I was young we did not wonder if there would be a nuclear war, but rather when. The No Future generation.
Compared to that climate change is less harsh - at least there's something we can do about it.
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Old 09-13-2019, 10:39 AM   #6860 (permalink)
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Thanks G... (OOPS, I'm a atheist) the generations change. If human being was imortal we would be in serious problems, since people in general do not evolve as individuals.

But I wonder if most kids are nice as your kids...

People can blame left wing for many things, but they have some important aspects to teach kids, despite many crazy things (remambering I'm not left or right wing). Things like:

-Conscience about the planet and that we do not own the world but we share it with other species and with the future generations.
-Consicence about justice, against prejudice (I know radical leftwing can have their prejudices against who thinks different from them).
-Understand that it's more important for feel safe and things to work fine ratter than ostentation.
-Respect individuals and theire differences and understand that we can't tolerate unjeustice against people.

The problem is that many left wings are radical, hypocrit and just use such things to turn people into political tools, and ignore that comunist symbols they like didn't respect it, like many comunist dictators from history or actual times.

I hope the new generation get strong enough to realise their parents were "rapped" by the media sexual manipulation & erotization. So they could avoid be sexual puppets from consumism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedDevil View Post
I have first hand experience with the next generation - my kids.
They don't care for big things like cars. They really don't care for things period.
They do care for utility - mainly the utility that comes with smartphones and tablets. My daughter was saving for a tablet and fully willing to work for it if need be - no matter how long or hard. After a while my son also got on the band wagon except for the work thing. We bought them a couple of good tablets, half paid with their own savings. They are happy with no regrets whatsoever.

They do care about the environment. I sometimes ask them whether that's because somebody (a.k.a. school) told them to but they insist that they want that themselves, regardless what other people say or do. And if they accidentally leave the tap running or a light on they feel bad about it when they realize it... and I realize how different it was when I was young. Sure I did not (usually) let the tap run unnecessary, but the concern then was money wasted.
My kids don't care about money (except as a means to buy them utilities), but if something is bad for the environment that moves them.
I drive relatively slow to save gas, they never complain. If once in a while I do get up to speed with the faster traffic then they'll comment. They really want to do good, for whatever reason.

And they do have reasons; if the sea level is a meter higher at the end of the century they will probably be around to endure that. The last time the average global temperature was 2 to 3 degrees above 1900 level the sea level was 14 to 16 meters higher than now.
It won't get that high in one century, but even a meter or 2 would flood all current sea ports and many of our metropoles and farmland. Many of the current rich farmlands are in the river deltas at sea level. If the sea rises all of those river deltas flood over; it will take thousands of years before new deltas form at the new level, and it won't happen at all until the rise stops.

Luckily the next generation does not care at all for big things that go broom broom. But we still do, so they will face the consequences of our decisions.

 
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