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Old 05-05-2018, 10:00 PM   #121 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 19bonestock88 View Post
What I did was bend some 3/4” steel strapping material into a shape resembling a capital U with an upside down L and attach it to the fender lip with JB Weld(semi permanent) and still a 5/16” hole in the tab it creates... attach the wheel skirt to it with a 1/4” nylon rivet
My wheel well skirts are very similar. But the skirt overlaps the exterior of the body, creating a clamping effect between the clip, skirt, and body exterior. The hold has been durable over maybe 30,000 miles or more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy View Post
Ease of removal is key though. I don't want to have to weld or drill, and there doesn't really seem to be any other way.
My skirts are easily removed, completely. When I remove the shirt from the clip, nothing holds the clip on the lip of the wheel well but light mechanical tension. Sometimes the clips fall to the ground on their own after I remove the skirt. I would recommend using some trim tape or black caulk as a cushion between the skirt and the body, because the paint does get scratched, not that I care much because the scratches are under the skirt.

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Old 05-05-2018, 11:15 PM   #122 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Xist View Post
It was not just me mentioning the story here? http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...tml#post567585 H-Man asked someone to find the story and I couldn't.
I don't think so; pretty sure there was more detail in the one I read. For all I know it could've been one of the other forums (the nissan micra or mitsubishi mirage one). It was a while back so I don't exactly remember.

Quote:
Originally Posted by California98Civic View Post
My wheel well skirts are very similar. But the skirt overlaps the exterior of the body, creating a clamping effect between the clip, skirt, and body exterior. The hold has been durable over maybe 30,000 miles or more.

...

My skirts are easily removed, completely. When I remove the shirt from the clip, nothing holds the clip on the lip of the wheel well but light mechanical tension. Sometimes the clips fall to the ground on their own after I remove the skirt. I would recommend using some trim tape or black caulk as a cushion between the skirt and the body, because the paint does get scratched, not that I care much because the scratches are under the skirt.
You just got me thinking here. What if I used something like the following with this metal plumbers tape:



Color coding:
Gray: wheel well lip of the car
Red: metal bracket from bent plumbers tape
Brown: side skirt material
Blue: screw

Is that similar to what you did?
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Old 05-06-2018, 12:01 AM   #123 (permalink)
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Plumbers's tape will tend to flex out of shape. It's not rigid enough. I copied MetroMPG and used copper pipe, cut and hammered into shape, for the clips. I also made some clips from used aluminium gum boxes. When I folded them to create rigid reinforcement in the folds they held alright. I still use a couple that have been on the car maybe two years.

BTW, your diagram is my exact set up.
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Old 05-06-2018, 12:13 AM   #124 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by California98Civic View Post
Plumbers's tape will tend to flex out of shape. It's not rigid enough.
Even if it's folded over itself for double thickness before using?

Quote:
Originally Posted by California98Civic View Post
I copied MetroMPG and used copper pipe, cut and hammered into shape, for the clips. I also made some clips from used aluminium gum boxes. When I folded them to create rigid reinforcement in the folds they held alright. I still use a couple that have been on the car maybe two years.
Copper...pipe? Did you have to hammer it flat?

How about something like these flat copper bars?

EDIT: Oh on another note, how about something radical like this?:

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Old 05-06-2018, 05:04 AM   #125 (permalink)
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Those bars should be about as thick as 1" pipe if you do not hammer it too much. I always wondered why people hammer pipes instead of purchasing something ready to use. They already had it?
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Old 05-06-2018, 10:24 AM   #126 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy View Post
Even if it's folded over itself for double thickness before using?
If you have it on hand then I say experiment with it. Doubling-up and perhaps bonding the two plys to each other with JB Weld, if you have it, might create a good, rigid clip, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy View Post
Copper...pipe? Did you have to hammer it flat?
Yes. And if I were to do it again, I might have tried to cut the pipe lengthwise first, if possible with my tools.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy View Post
How about something like these flat copper bars?
Three mm thickness looks good to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy View Post
EDIT: Oh on another note, how about something radical like this?:

I love flat spoilers and want one. But if I were doing these I would need to test these mods in cardboard before committing. The tail of the Civic was already optimized, even though it is not "template," and so little changes might create more problems than benefits. Somewhere on EM MetroMPG has his 7th Gen Civic kammback and boat-tail build thread. He was surprised by the difficulty in creating an improvement. Check that thread out, if you have not already seen it.

For wheel skirts I would recommend a shape that just executes the narrower task of the wheel.



Xist:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xist View Post
Those bars should be about as thick as 1" pipe if you do not hammer it too much. I always wondered why people hammer pipes instead of purchasing something ready to use. They already had it?
...or they bought pipe because that was how MetroMPG did it and they did not know about copper bars, lol!
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See my car's mod & maintenance thread and my electric bicycle's thread for ongoing projects. I will rebuild Black and Green over decades as parts die, until it becomes a different car of roughly the same shape and color. My minimum fuel economy goal is 55 mpg while averaging posted speed limits. I generally top 60 mpg. See also my Honda manual transmission specs thread.

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Old 05-06-2018, 11:15 AM   #127 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xist View Post
Those bars should be about as thick as 1" pipe if you do not hammer it too much. I always wondered why people hammer pipes instead of purchasing something ready to use. They already had it?
That's what I was thinking. Hammering a pipe flat just sounds like too much unnecessary work if there's an easier way. Unless, of course, like you said, they already had it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by California98Civic View Post
If you have it on hand then I say experiment with it. Doubling-up and perhaps bonding the two plys to each other with JB Weld, if you have it, might create a good, rigid clip, I think.
I might experiment with it today if I get around to it. And if it doesn't work, at least I'll have the template for use on copper bars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by California98Civic View Post
I love flat spoilers and want one. But if I were doing these I would need to test these mods in cardboard before committing. The tail of the Civic was already optimized, even though it is not "template," and so little changes might create more problems than benefits. Somewhere on EM MetroMPG has his 7th Gen Civic kammback and boat-tail build thread. He was surprised by the difficulty in creating an improvement. Check that thread out, if you have not already seen it.
How would a tail extension possibly hurt FE? since it isn't modifying the airflow but rather just extending it out.

MetroMPG's was an 8th gen with the more aerodynamic rear end. I know the 7th gen's isn't bad, per se, but it doesn't seem perfect...and I'm at loss where to go from here to hit 50 mpg lol. I'm hitting 50 mpg on some trips, but my tank is still just over 45 mpg per the Torque app.

Quote:
Originally Posted by California98Civic View Post
For wheel skirts I would recommend a shape that just executes the narrower task of the wheel.

Ah, okay.

I do want to experiment with a boattail at some point down the road when I have more info about properly constructing one, and I figured if that "radical" design would help provide a transition from the wheel wells to the boattail then it would have some slight benefit now as is.
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Old 05-06-2018, 11:36 AM   #128 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpg_numbers_guy View Post
... How would a tail extension possibly hurt FE? since it isn't modifying the airflow but rather just extending it out.

MetroMPG's was an 8th gen with the more aerodynamic rear end. I know the 7th gen's isn't bad, per se, but it doesn't seem perfect...and I'm at loss where to go from here to hit 50 mpg lol. I'm hitting 50 mpg on some trips, but my tank is still just over 45 mpg per the Torque app.
...
I see you are right it was an 8th Gen Civic. But it was the sedan, not the coupe. Anyway, it is not that the boat-tail would hurt, necessarily, but mostly that the benefit might be disappointingly slight for all the work. Getting it right is difficult because the shape involves compound curves that can deal with flow coming from below, sides, and top. If the angles and curves are not right you get less benefit or none. So it needs a lot of thought and patience.

You have the auto, so the engine off coasting thing is out. But looking at your car's page, there are other tactics and mods available still, I think, that are easier to design so as to capture a known benefit. HYPERMILING: turning the car off at stoplights, and using engine braking to slow the car when approaching a stop. Engine braking will trigger deceleration fuel cut-off and you will coast to about 1600 RPMs without burning fuel. MODS: undertray (AKA "bellypan") with diffuser, electric block heater to shorten warm-up time, weight reduction especially if you drive in urban suburban places, larger wheel/tire diameter for taller gearing, LRR tires, turning the car off at stoplights, eliminating power steering or putting it on an underdrive pully, putting alternator on an on/off switch and getting a deep cycle battery to charge from the grid... and then the more ambitious, such as an electric water pump.
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See my car's mod & maintenance thread and my electric bicycle's thread for ongoing projects. I will rebuild Black and Green over decades as parts die, until it becomes a different car of roughly the same shape and color. My minimum fuel economy goal is 55 mpg while averaging posted speed limits. I generally top 60 mpg. See also my Honda manual transmission specs thread.

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Old 05-06-2018, 11:43 AM   #129 (permalink)
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I'll add that the power steering delete one one of the biggest bangs for the buck (free) and it is easy to test in a reversible way: just loosen and remove the power steering belt for a a few days. See how it feels. It will be a little stiffer than it could be because it will still have the PS fluid in the rack, but you will see what it is like. I remember thinking it was associated with a 1-3 MPG improvement, though your benefit may vary and will be nearly impossible to "prove."

EDIT: btw, your 04 Civic EX auto has taller cruising gearing than a 6th Gen Civic HX manual, just barely. And with taller wheel/tires you'll be approaching the freeway cruising RPMs of a fifth gen VX.
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See my car's mod & maintenance thread and my electric bicycle's thread for ongoing projects. I will rebuild Black and Green over decades as parts die, until it becomes a different car of roughly the same shape and color. My minimum fuel economy goal is 55 mpg while averaging posted speed limits. I generally top 60 mpg. See also my Honda manual transmission specs thread.


Last edited by California98Civic; 05-06-2018 at 11:50 AM..
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Old 05-06-2018, 11:56 AM   #130 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by California98Civic View Post
I see you are right it was an 8th Gen Civic. But it was the sedan, not the coupe. Anyway, it is not that the boat-tail would hurt, necessarily, but mostly that the benefit might be disappointingly slight for all the work. Getting it right is difficult because the shape involves compound curves that can deal with flow coming from below, sides, and top. If the angles and curves are not right you get less benefit or none. So it needs a lot of thought and patience.
sigh. This is why most eco-drivers don't ecomod lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by California98Civic View Post
You have the auto, so the engine off coasting thing is out.
What about when approaching a stop and you've coasted to below 15 mph and the mpg readout is 30 or under? Is it okay to turn it off and coast the last few feet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by California98Civic View Post
HYPERMILING: turning the car off at stoplights, and using engine braking to slow the car when approaching a stop. Engine braking will trigger deceleration fuel cut-off and you will coast to about 1600 RPMs without burning fuel.
I have the lights timed mostly perfect so far that I haven't had to stop much.

Quote:
MODS: undertray (AKA "bellypan") with diffuser
Wouldn't the gains from that be negligible with the air dam?

Quote:
Originally Posted by California98Civic View Post
electric block heater to shorten warm-up time
Definitely on my list...eventually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by California98Civic View Post
weight reduction especially if you drive in urban suburban places
I've thought of this, but wouldn't the reduced weight reduce coasting ability? Like, when going down even a slight downhill my MPGs jump to like 85...wouldn't the weight reduction require the generation of more momentum in cruising, thus cancelling out the benefit from the lighter weight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by California98Civic View Post
larger wheel/tire diameter for taller gearing, LRR tires
Tires are almost new (<2000 miles on them). Unless I could sell them and buy different ones. I'd just have to figure out which wheel/tire combos would work with my car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by California98Civic View Post
eliminating power steering or putting it on an underdrive pully
I generally take turns at 15-25 mph (when safe) to reduce acceleration, wouldn't this make that impossible due to the increased steering difficulty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by California98Civic View Post
putting alternator on an on/off switch and getting a deep cycle battery to charge from the grid
Aren't the batteries expensive, and isn't their lifespan short enough to where there is no ROI?

EDIT: And btw thank you for ALL your helpful input!!

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