High MPG Vehicle or Custom Build?

[Stubby79]

Keep it clean, boys. We don't want to turn this in to another one of those forums.

[Daschicken]

Rant+helpful answers combined, bear with me.

Originally Posted by schunter1969

All these responses clearly did not read my original post. So before you reply how about you actual read what I was asking.

Well, looking back at your original response, it isn't really clear what you want...You want to get better mpg because your 4 runner is costing too much money to do long commutes on, but you also say you don't care how much mods cost...Are you trying to get the best mpg just for the heck of it?

Originally Posted by schunter1969

Fat Charlie I clearly said I don't want to hear preaching about driving. I know how to drive efficient when I want to. I HATE going to a forum about a mod for Improving gas mileage and some idiot starts preaching about the driving style.

The reason you are getting preaching is because cars like the Centurion need to be driven EFFICIENTLY to get 100 mpg. Driving style mods WORK. 40% improvement in mpg JUST from driving style mods is easy, and many times it can allow you to maintain the same avg speed. Another thing about driving style mods, THEY ARE FREE. There are 50cc scooters available that will give you your 100 mpg if you don't wan't to adjust your driving style.

Originally Posted by schunter1969

I also stated I do not like the look of a Prius which looks exactly like a turd insight.

So you call the insight a turd, but not the prius? The insight can come with a MANUAL TRANSMISSION, no prius can. Are you comparing the 2nd gen insight to the prius? Cause I don't really see the resemblance between 1st gen insight and prius. What if I called your 4 runner a turd? "F***ing piece of **** SUV that can't take a hard corner without rolling over!" There! See...How does that feel? I can bet you that we feel pretty similar when you come on a hypermiling forum and right away start bashing successful eco cars.

Originally Posted by schunter1969

If you can't comprehend wanting to building a good looking vehicle that has the capability of out performing that turd box you call an insight/prius then please don't respond. Go hug your tree, talk about poor dying animals, charge your batteries or whatever else liberals do...

Have you looked around this forum at all? A lot of the people here are not liberals, I myself am a libertarian. Are you ready for it? Do you want to hear the MAIN REASON I hypermile? Ready? Here goes!

ENGINES ARE FUN.

That's right, I think engines are F***ing amazing fun. They can sound amazing, they are very practical, and they are just plain FUN to operate! However, the problem is that engines are inefficient and are dependent on a declining fuel supply. What does this have to do with engines being fun? Well, if the EPA goes and decides that engines are evil and need to be banned altogether, then they are gone. No more fun. I hypermile because engines are a privilege we get to enjoy fairly freely. I want it to stay that way. If everyone started driving more efficiently (trust me, its really F***ing easy) then we get to enjoy engines for LONGER! I want my children and grandchildren to be able to enjoy engines too, not just me telling stories to them about the good ol' days.

Originally Posted by schunter1969

MY QUESTION:
"Is there a similar build as the Centurion that would allow me to get those kind of MPG? Kit? Any other success stories like the Centurion that is well documented?"

Look up the LO-COST, it is essentially a cheap Lotus 7 kit car. I have seen somewhere that a guy put an aero body on one plus other mods and could touch 100 mpg. Here is one such LO-COST thread: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...-11009-21.html

Originally Posted by schunter1969

An actual modification to a car requires tools, experience, and hard work. Things I have seen people do on this website for "Hypermiling Mods" is tape Duct Tape and card board for "aerodynamics".... this is not an actual modification, this you trying to make yourself feel good because you lack the skills to actually do something. You are giving yourself a participation trophy and patting yourself on the back.

So screwdrivers, wire cutter pliers and hammers are not tools? Reading about real aero experts and their discoveries via research papers plus understanding general aero rules for cars doesn't equal experience? 20+ hours of work is not hard work? You sound more like a stylist than an engineer when you talk like that. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE PRETTY TO WORK.

Here are the modifications to my car, take a good look. It sure isn't winning any design competitions, but I can tell you one thing, THEY WORK.




Your turn, show us your aero mods. Oh wait, that's right, you have none. Not even a PARTICIPATION TROPHY for you! HA!

Originally Posted by schunter1969

If you are not responding to my question about similar builds to the Centurion then move on. And if you think your turd box is similar to a Centurion then your opinion is worthless.

Okay, thanks.

Originally Posted by schunter1969

Fat Charlie you must not have any basic understand of how a combustion engine works... which explains your duct tape and card board "modifications".

When you increase the efficiency of how a motor runs, the mpg increases regardless of how you drive.

For the VW's with the ALH motor, it is well documented that if you install a bigger turbo and injectors (with the correct supporting systems like FMIC, etc) this will increase the efficiency of the motor. The increase in forced air at the right amount coupled with the correct tuning almost doubles the HP and Torque of the motor.

Then after doing those upgrades, WITH A MANUAL TRANSMISSION, you can swap out the 5th gear for a taller gear. Because you have increased the efficiency/torque of the motor it can now handle the increased load of a taller gear.

I think you are confusing VOLUMETRIC efficiency with fuel efficiency. You could do all those mods to your engine and end up with great volumetric efficiency but ****tastic mpg.

Originally Posted by schunter1969

With this done you can be cruising at 1,500 rpms going 70mph and get 80+mpg. I am not making up these numbers, again this is well documented BEFORE even doing any aero mods.

The only way I could see a car like that getting 80 mpg at 70 mph without EXTREME aero mods is by drafting. Consider that many non fuel economy forum members don't regularly track their fuel economy and may use faulty methods to come to a faulty conclusion. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Originally Posted by schunter1969

While at the same time when I come up to Fat Charlie's duct tape/card board car cruising at 50mph Ill drop it into 4th and fly by with the new capabilities of my car. Also I be leaving you a black cloud of smoke because my Jetta will be a 3" straight pipe from turbo down pipe to tip of my exhaust! None of that catalytic converter nonsense.

You really have conflicting goals don't you? You want to be able to cruise at 70mph at 1500 rpm, okay. That takes TORQUE, specifically low end torque, the very low end torque that you LOSE by going to a 3" straight pipe on a small engine. Black clouds of smoke? That is unburned fuel, you say you want to get good mpg?

Catalytic converters exist for a reason. Ready for it?

That is smog. No one likes smog. Smog sucks. Catalytic converters cut down on smog by SIGNIFICANTLY reducing unburned hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxides, and particulate matter. All this SIGNIFICANT pollution reduction comes to you at the cost of slightly reduced high rpm engine performance. That's it. You don't need to kill the cat to get good mpg or make good power.

On that note, there is also a reason California has such strict emissions laws. Yes, a lot of that simply has to do with environmentalist culture/lobbying, but the real reason is that California is boxed in by mountains which cut off the airflow. Here is a quote about this subject that explains it better than I can:
"Los Angeles in particular is strongly predisposed to accumulation of smog, because of peculiarities of its geography and weather patterns. Los Angeles is situated in a flat basin with ocean on one side and mountain ranges on three sides. A nearby cold ocean current depresses surface air temperatures in the area, resulting in an inversion layer: a phenomenon where air temperature increases, instead of decreasing, with altitude, suppressing thermals and restricting vertical convection. All taken together, this results in a relatively thin, enclosed layer of air above the city that cannot easily escape out of the basin and tends to accumulate pollution."

Originally Posted by schunter1969

Fat Charlie how about you educate yourself before making another uneducated comment on vehicles. You can be the most efficient driver but at the end of the day you are going to plateau when you reach the max capabilities of your motor and drivetrain. All the duct tape and card board in the world isn't going to change that.

I'm sorry, but not using efficient driving techniques is going to prevent you from plateauing how? And actually, card board and duct tape CAN change that by improving aerodynamics. Just because it doesn't look pretty doesn't mean it doesn't work. I showed my aero mods to some of my formula SAE team members, and you know what they did? No, they didn't disown me for not spending 3000 god damn hours in solidsuicide designing them and making the parts out of 101% pure refined Supreme branded carbon fiber. You know what they thought about my semi-ghetto aero mods? They liked them! That's right, they don't have to be pretty. Engineers come to appreciate function over form.

[oil pan 4]

My wife has a 2001 VW bug turbo gas motor. By comparison my 1985 suburban with 454 and 3 speed auto with 4.10 rear gears is cheaper to drive base on operating cost.
To say a VW is expensive to operate is an under statement. 2 trips to the dealership cost a total of $1,800 and that's not counting towing it 80 miles each way with my suburban and car trailer.
They are great vehicles, just not for very long.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

My wife has a 2001 VW bug turbo gas motor. By comparison my 1985 suburban with 454 and 3 speed auto with 4.10 rear gears is cheaper to drive base on operating cost.
To say a VW is expensive to operate is an under statement. 2 trips to the dealership cost a total of $1,800 and that's not counting towing it 80 miles each way with my suburban and car trailer.
They are great vehicles, just not for very long.

My dad had a 2001 TDI, in 120,000 miles
Timing belt & cover , water pump
Glow plugs twice and harness rebuild
Oil pan & seal
All 4 rotors rusted out had to do a full brake job and bearings, parts were surprisingly expensive
Injection pump had a defect from the factory and grenaded $3000 in parts after warranty.
Glove box failed twice, replacement was the most difficult glove box I ever did
Passenger door would only unlock if the driver got in and pulled the handle
Both fenders replaced under warranty because the paint peeled off and rusted out had to fight VW months for a recall
Rear bumper paint peeled for no apparent reason
Interior was not cleanable
All plastic handles peeled
Trunk release broke, hard to use the key
Front end chewed up tires in strange ways front end wouldn't align

Probably a few dozen other things I'm forgetting

Because racecar

[JRMichler]

It would be far less work to replace the mud tires with LRR tires, remove the lift kit, convert to 2WD, add a grille block and air dam, adjust the differential ratio as appropriate, and learn to drive for mileage. The OP would double his gas mileage and keep the vehicle that he obviously likes.

[oil pan 4]

That reminds me the glove box is still broken.
This one holds front end alignment real good.

[Fat Charlie]

I've never built an engine, don't have the knowledge to build an engine, don't have the inclination to build an engine. Mainly because it makes more sense to work backwards: until you minimize losses due to driving style, aero and rolling resistance, it doesn't matter what you've done to the engine because you're going to force it to work through all those inefficiencies.

At the right ambient temps, my engine is efficient enough that I get 300 mpg while gliding at 60 mph. If I want better than that, I've got a key that brings it up to infinity mpg. Call it a failing of mine, but I'm perfectly happy with that kind of efficiency under the hood. Maybe if I get really ambitious a WAI could bring that up a bit, but it'd take more testing than wrenching, and would only ever pay off if I saw it as a "look what I did" mod.

Tire pressure and a grille block, OTOH, produced big reductions in rolling and aero resistance, and the block actually lets my non-wasteful engine put some heat into the cabin in the winter. Another fun fact about aeromods is that they help even more when you're going faster. If it helps, I went high end with the grille block: coroplast instead of cardboard, recessed and painted black. When I posted a pic here, someone thought I had accidentally posted the "before" shot.

[changzuki]

Originally Posted by vskid3

What has you so obsessed with the Centurion? Ya it looks cool, but it doesn't really get over 100MPG unless you're willing to take a few hours on your commute. According to this article, it gets 128MPG at a constant 35MPH, and around 40MPG in normal driving. The reason it gets good mileage is the tiny diesel (that tops out at 55MPH), not really the aerodynamics.

So, just for readers coming across this, I'd like to set the record straight:
The Green Car Reports article pulls directly from Lane Motor Museum's account of the "Burlington Cars" built Centurion and not from their own experience with the car. Not a problem for Green Car Reports, or even Lane Motor Museum for that matter, the problem is the car at Lane is one example, and one I question. After discussions with Mr. Riley, we both agree there is an issue with that car, and we know the build was deviated from just in appearance alone.

In contrast, I have three Centurions: Riley's original, the gray one I built, and a fully electric one. Riley's original will beat his original numbers without modification and without hypermiling. 55 mph is not the top speed limit of a Centurion by any means (my gray one tops out at 88 mph and there's still headroom). All three Green Grand Prix events that Centurion went to are very well documented as-is all the trips driving to and from the event (uncut footage from in-car cameras).

At those events (2015, 2016, 2017) Centurion went up against some pretty stiff competition, on the same track, same conditions, same 100 miles with one mandatory stop, with two people in the car per their rules and the mpg for all contestants at the end of the day speaks for itself. Eventually Centurion's numbers will be beat at the event, but I'm not seeing that yet..

I have a lot on my laundry list, but somewhere in it is reviving Riley's original (which I did start) and then onto the electric if batteries ever get viable for electric cars - they need one more leap. Should that happen I'll start a separate thread for that car.
-
~CrazyJerry~

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by changzuki

So, just for readers coming across this, I'd like to set the record straight:
The Green Car Reports article pulls directly from Lane Motor Museum's account of the "Burlington Cars" built Centurion and not from their own experience with the car. Not a problem for Green Car Reports, or even Lane Motor Museum for that matter, the problem is the car at Lane is one example, and one I question. After discussions with Mr. Riley, we both agree there is an issue with that car, and we know the build was deviated from just in appearance alone.

In contrast, I have three Centurions: Riley's original, the gray one I built, and a fully electric one. Riley's original will beat his original numbers without modification and without hypermiling. 55 mph is not the top speed limit of a Centurion by any means (my gray one tops out at 88 mph and there's still headroom). All three Green Grand Prix events that Centurion went to are very well documented as-is all the trips driving to and from the event (uncut footage from in-car cameras).

At those events (2015, 2016, 2017) Centurion went up against some pretty stiff competition, on the same track, same conditions, same 100 miles with one mandatory stop, with two people in the car per their rules and the mpg for all contestants at the end of the day speaks for itself. Eventually Centurion's numbers will be beat at the event, but I'm not seeing that yet..

I have a lot on my laundry list, but somewhere in it is reviving Riley's original (which I did start) and then onto the electric if batteries ever get viable for electric cars - they need one more leap. Should that happen I'll start a separate thread for that car.
-
~CrazyJerry~

Thanks for chiming in!

~

Today was the first time I saw this thread. I understand this was years ago now, but I was a bit shocked by how this played out.

[redneck]

.

04-12-2017 10:58 AM

vskid3

3 years later...

Today, 07:54 AM

changzuki

Such a timely response...



Welcome back...



>