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Old 11-07-2013, 05:42 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Slightly straying off topic, but speaking of OEM looking mods; has anyone done in thermo/vacuum forming? I have some extra Lexan and was considering vac forming the front grill of the new car.



I'm familiar with the method as I've made a holster from kydex before. Simply scaling it up seems like a plausible way to do a very nice looking grill block that would be invisible. Or paint it black and have a tesla model S front end!

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Old 11-07-2013, 08:26 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BongoBennie View Post
So on the engine note..... I looked around, is there any good threads about building an engine for eco? like thin titanium rods, knife edged crank, lightweight short skirt pistons? 13:1 like compression, turbocharging with economy in mind, I did see the lean burn tuning..... on that note, is there anything about the D15Z that makes it suitable for lean burn use, or is it all in the tune?

I'm still considering going back to a Honda platform running a modified D16Z6 engine with ultra lean burn capability.

The next one I would like to build would have around 14:1 compression with a turbocharger. It would run pump premium on the street with very low boost and a H2O/meth kit or I'm even considering a boost referenced propane enrichment kit.

Then for the track I would run e98 ethanol.

I'm still looking for a 1st generation Honda Insight that has a bad engine and battery to install this engine package into.
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Old 11-07-2013, 09:03 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Back to the D15z, if the cc is small and pistons dished, can you use other stock honda pistons to raise compression nice and high? and BGFPRO, I have thought about dual fuel myself, the new AEM ecu is dual fuel capable...... But just like in racing, how crazy with money do we get for an extra MPG? ECU is 3 grand... Imagine an infinite budget D15 build..... who here is crazy enough? I'd rather convert to electric in the end of it all..... !st gen insights should be dying soon, hope I have some cash when one is available.
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Old 11-07-2013, 09:39 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Brucey, you should be able to scale up the vacuum mold to almost any size you need. years ago I repaired a machine that made large skylights and they used flood lights as a heat source and a shop vac
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Old 11-08-2013, 06:21 AM   #75 (permalink)
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Bongo- might be easier to play around with the head gasket thickness and shaving the head. Of course watching for valve clearance is part of the deal if its going to be really tight. Could play around with some pistons but I'm sure some flycutting would be in order. I was actually thinking about building a d13 and putting a z1 head onto it. Then some custom tuning would def have to be in order but I would think it would be awesome in a light crx. The z1 swaps in those already yield 60+mpg.
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Old 11-08-2013, 09:36 AM   #76 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BongoBennie View Post
First off, Coma, MPG is a huge deal for racing cars, Le Mans, F1, Indy and NASCAR depend hugely on efficiency. Second, the reason these things are listed as off road is for liability/legal reasons, Ill bet more than half of the ecomodded cars are illegal too so that point is invalid..... and as far who cares about MPG in a performance car?? I DO..... MPG is performance just like a lap time, I doubt anyone is on here because that are poor and can afford gas, most are here to bench race (talk crap) just like the tuner crowd does in their world.

There is an old saying in racing.... "Fast IS Efficient" there is more in common with lets say an NSX and an Insight, than either car vs an accord. I'm here trolling ecomodder, not to save gas or the world, but to make my car FASTER without burning more fuel.
First off, winning is a huger deal for racing. MPG is one factor out of many that racers concern themselves with.

Are many of the ecomodded rides illegal? I strongly doubt it. The number of guys on this forum who talk about getting pulled over to have their rides looked over at the side of the road by curious cops - and then sent on their way unticketed - is pretty high. Keeping things within the letter and spirit of the law is a much-repeated refrain when 'modders describe additions and subtractions on their vehicles. If Basjoos hasn't had his over-the-top Aerocivic impounded, I think pretty much everyone is in the clear. I've read a couple of our European friends talking about boattails and mentioning maximum legal rearward projection, and keeping their alterations within that limit. And lots of these 'modders are in California, so they're having to get stuff done under the noses of the most up-in-your-business motoring bureaucracy around.

"Fast IS Efficient," no, it isn't. Fast is fast. Faster on the same power, that's efficient. More range on the same fuel, that's efficient. Your earlier statement that successful racing teams keep a close eye on their fuel consumption and work hard to maximize it, that's right. But the above platitude is meaningless.

I'm not here to bench race. Bench racing isn't actual performance, so it does nothing for me. I'm here to get ideas, provide support and encouragement, and most important of all, challenge myself to better performance. I don't have much money to spare, so squeezing an extra hundred miles out of my tank - literally the kind of results I have achieved - over the EPA rating can't be a bad thing.

As to the guys being less than impressed with the high cost of the upgrades on the project car compared to the results, I'm on the fence. Part of the goal is to reduce weight for better MPG, but keeping weight down is also a good thing for autox. Looked at for how such an investment pays off both at the pump and the timeslip, it becomes a lot more reasonable. Another old saying in racing: "Speed is money. How fast can you afford to go?" Letting your racing mods do double duty as economy boosters isn't just ecomodding, it's moneymodding.
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Old 11-08-2013, 11:12 AM   #77 (permalink)
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I love this thread!!!

What I find so strange is how the racing performance crowd and the ecomodder performance crowd don't play well together.
I consider myself both, thus my cars nick name misfit talon.

"Fast and Efficient" do go together in racing.

1) "Aerodynamics" is a no brainier. Both party's will agree on this one.

2) "Weight" again should be a no brainier. Both have to over come inertia.

3) "Engine efficiency" this is where the ecomodder's will say the racing performance crowd just want to burn more fuel to make more power and don't care how efficient the engine is. Not true at all!!! They both want the same thing... excellent BSFC numbers.
Engine weight plays a key role in all racing today. The best example is how the turbo charger and super charger racing engines today are down-sizing the engine to make the whole car lighter. There are mechanical advantages to running a smaller engine also. Small bore size just to name one, helps with detonation.

Next years F1 race cars is where Fast and Efficient are probably the best example of how these to words coincide. Major engine downsize with stringent fuel usage rules compare to 2013 rules.

I have two local friends that are running 2.0L Talon race cars that have inspired me on my build. One runs 8.07 @ 172 mph and the other runs 8.20 @ 168 mph in the 1/4 mile. Not bench racing here I have video. My thoughts were if I could just have half the power that they are running and still maintain great fuel economy how fun would that be.
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Old 11-08-2013, 12:13 PM   #78 (permalink)
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^^ Dude. Cracking into the 8s with 2.0 under the hood is damn good. I reckon the boost is right up there.

I have a 4g64 under the hood of my late grandmother's Colt Vista, dropped valve. In the process of disassembling to investigate the butcher's bill. I understand that somehow, the odd little Vista is a popular foundation for heavily boosted sleepers. Not my cup of tea, but a funny concept to think about.

Yeah, fast and efficient do go together, not arguing that at all. Wasteful racing = last place. A badly set up car is hard to control, throws away power on misaligned bits, etc. I'm willing to reach across the aisle to the racers. We're actually trying to achieve the same goals: best possible speed on the least power/fuel burn. The only difference between racers and hypermilers is the highest priority: speed vs. distance. That's it. That difference is what drives the prioritization of other vehicle modifications, but with just a little investigation anyone could see that the decisions that get made translate from racer to hypermiler very easily, again weighted according to the ultimate goal.
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Old 11-08-2013, 04:59 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xist View Post
I was wondering if they would actually improve their mileage with their modifications, but it sounds like they are reducing enough weight to make a small difference.

I joked about it once. I am positive that none of us have replaced body panels with coroplast, so I am pretty sure that none of us would approve of that one.

funny thing, i drove my massive company van and noticed it coasted way farther due to all the enertia from the weight of a argo van, if the car is to light it will not have as much coasting power, which could hurt MPG, this vx idea is to make the car as light as possible, boring, anyone can do that but to scientifically make the car more aerodynamic you dont even need to take out weight just drop the CD, also which ecomodders car isnot practical?! everysingle car ive seen on here is practical, check out the eco mods on my jetta[IMG]http:/[/IMG]
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Old 11-08-2013, 05:11 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Dmafanp, that's a good note about the weight. A perfect example is my vx swapped sedan that is 300 or so lbs heavier than a vx. The sedan coasts extremely well downhill with the extra weight and vx trans where on the same hill my vx sometimes needs a boost. Then again the vx takes less energy to accelerate with less weight so that balances out. My sedan also has power steering so that wil knock it down a little. On a perfectly straight road the lighter car will def outperform the heavier, but I certainly dont have perfectly straight roads around me.

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Last edited by slownugly; 11-08-2013 at 08:37 PM..
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