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Old 10-09-2012, 05:15 AM   #91 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ecomodded View Post
Quote DoctorM:
I'm also thinking about setting up a "still" to remove the ethanol and then add in some acetone to compensate. I have some papers on experiments along that line also.

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Acetone enrichment can be studied in our unicorn corral where it belongs.
Removing ethanol from the gas? belongs in the corral as well, ridiculous idea to begin with, lets all go buy some gas then remove 5% of its volume threw some time consuming nutty distillation process and bingo you now have less fuel to travel less miles with. Now that's a bright idea, the original poster is either gullible as all **** or is trolling.

I nominate this thread to the Unicorn coral
You are an obvious emotional jack-off - so I nominate you to the moron thread. Your emotional immaturity display just killed off what little credibility you had, which now is none.

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Old 10-09-2012, 06:11 AM   #92 (permalink)
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Emotion? Care to point it out?

So you're going to pull your engine, put it on a dyno and test this. Great! Let us know what you find out. Btw, I never said it wouldn't work.

Just out of curiosity, how much does acetone cost per gallon?
I wasn't necessarily speaking to you about being emotional. So don't get so all emotional about it and drag yourself into that category.

You don't have pull the engine to put it on a dynamometer. There are rigs that measure the horsepower right at the rear wheels (or front wheels for front-wheel drive). The reason for the dynamometer are:

1) to faithfully replicate running conditions in repeated trials (this is virtually impossible to do with a driver and a vehicle on the road);

2) eliminate emotion from the equation (emotion destroys objectivity);

3) eliminate human machinations (for or against) to bias the test; and

4) much more precise measurement can be accomplished for small effects (that might not be noticed otherwise.)

As to the cost of acetone, according to the article I read, you only use a few ounces of acetone in ten gallons of gasoline, so the cost of it isn't that much.

And I'm not saying that it does work - only that testing on a dyno is necessary to determine whether it does or not.

I am criticizing the rationalizations for not testing it (that I've heard in this forum) as just pseudo-logical (mental masturbation). Nothing, not all the pseudo-logic in the world, substitutes for proper testing.

As far as using my vehicle as a test platform:
1) It is under warranty, and I'm not about to violate that;
2) My fuel usage (mpg) has yet to stabilize (see my mpg graph a couple of posts above).

However, I am thinking of a suggestion to Myth-Busters, as they look for such kind of things to test, and have sponsor money to burn. We'll see how that goes.

By the way. the same goes for adding some diesel to the gasoline tank - some literature suggests it may be beneficial. I would also like to see that tested on a dynamometer.
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:23 AM   #93 (permalink)
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i remember hearing that diesel mixed in can be beneficial. there's a paper floating around about 30% ethanol being ideal for mpg.

i do agree that the best way to test these things is on a dyno, but this is a DIY community and i know i don't have one sitting in my garage, so i guess real world tests is all we have.
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:26 AM   #94 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JRMichler View Post
Let's play with numbers. E10 gasoline is 10% ethanol, and (I believe) most cars lose about 2% gas mileage with E10 compared to E0 with the same octane rating. If we could remove the ethanol from E10 using zero energy, then we would end up with 90% as much fuel as we started with. The result would be 2% better mileage on the remaining fuel minus 10% for the 10% less fuel, or a net loss of 8%.

Homedepot lists acetone at $17 per gallon on their web site.
You are right in that those are things to consider - are the economics worth it.

Some studies already indicate that the production of ethanol takes more energy than it produces - so (if true) that would be a net loss rather than a net gain. We'll see how that story plays out politically.

I think ethanol might have far more impact than 2% on gas mileage. And the assumptions you make would have to be replaced with hard factual data.

There is also some study that indicates that a little diesel in the gasoline might be more efficient that ethanol. That is also something worth investigating and testing (in my opinion).
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:47 AM   #95 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ksa8907 View Post
i remember hearing that diesel mixed in can be beneficial. there's a paper floating around about 30% ethanol being ideal for mpg.

i do agree that the best way to test these things is on a dyno, but this is a DIY community and i know i don't have one sitting in my garage, so i guess real world tests is all we have.
I don't have a dyno either, though my garage is crammed with a lot of other tools and equipment, so much so, there is hardly any room to use them. I once drew up plans for a home-made dyno. Maybe I still have that in my computer someplace, though that was many decades ago. Conceptually, it not all that complicated.

I heard a 5% or less alcohol (ethanol) content may be beneficial, but any more lessens mileage. That's another good candidate for a dyno.

The diesel mix really interests me, but I haven't heard what kind of ratio it should be. And what the effects of both ethanol and diesel together might be.

I'm hoping that Myth Busters might get interested in this eco-mod stuff, and the ethanol, acetone, and diesel additive issues in particular, and do a show or two on it. While they have fun doing it, and they do it for entertainment, they do try to set up logical, relevant, and objective procedures.
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:20 AM   #96 (permalink)
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Wow, what a thread.

Doc, you might look to baselining the vehicle and the driver:

1] Weighing the vehicle w/driver, full fuel and items permanently aboard.
2] Note the tire type, brand & tread, and load versus pressure (15% reserve)
3] Confirmed that there is no brake drag or alignment issues, etc.
4] The type of driving being done (length of trip; time & miles: average mph)

and whatever else you find worthwhile. Unless I missed it, I see no info about how the vehicle is used. So far as comparisons to others are concerned,

a] Truck spec
b] Climate
c] Terrrain
d] Truck use

are central to teasing out valid comparisons.

I get the impression that "fuel is the answer", yet I see no info proffered where more intelligent use can gain a foothold is present. Confirmation bias at work?

The DHS noticed, in a study released last year that 90% of Americans drive to 90% of the same places 90% of the time . . so, how have you re-ordered your usual errand-running, etc, to baseline your driving? FedEx & UPS use route ordering (the arrangement of stops) to minimize fuel burn, and so can you. MAPQUEST can suggest re-ordering of stops.

I'm not the only one to see continued mpg improvements on a gasoline vehicle through 30k miles -- a declining curve of improvement, but present -- so a fuel log and established routing for the routine runs, plus map consultation for new stops is a part of being able to baseline both vehicle and driver in present condition/use.

Nice to see the give & take. Yet it is revealing that the emotional content of assumptions about how the world should work -- FE as the stand-in -- is hindering your reading around this site. Grab a detail (climate & topography for example; routing can be mapped with sat data) and offer up what you find. There will be found feedback (links & experience) which will be found fruitful. I'd start by reading every thread/post concerning a pickup truck and making a list or three.

The splinter in one's own eye is the general problem all start with, myself included.

And, welcome!

.
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:53 AM   #97 (permalink)
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No need to further waste any of your time on this rediculous thread. DoctorM no longer has the privledge of posting on this fine forum.

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