It's all over but for the sweating?

[NeilBlanchard]

A good way to frame the false dichotomy of the environment VS the economy is that the economy is a SUBSET of the environment. The economy is totally and utterly dependent on the environment.

We cannot eat money, and we cannot drink gold, and we cannot breath the GDP.

I live in New England, and the fishermen are mad at the fishing restrictions and the catch limits - as if those are the government being needlessly mean.

We are massively overfishing, and we are poisoning the water with mercury and stupid nitrogen fertilizer etc. etc., and we are causing it to be more acidic, and we are causing it to be too warm - remember cold water is rich and life giving because it holds more oxygen and more nutrients. And we have spread invasive species of plants and animals that are taking a heavy toll.

And that's just one of the myriad of things that we humans are doing. Factory farming where we pump growth hormones and antibiotics into our food and spray poisons on the crops, and everything is designed for the dump, and oxymoronic "disposable plastic", and genetically modified foods, and we put endocrine disruptors into lots of things - and we force the people who are hurt by all these things to prove that they are hurt; rather than making the people who profit from it prove that they don't hurt anything.

The default mode of business is planned obsolescence, and everything is hard sell, and Bread & Circus is the norm...

Edit: Really useful history of the science of climate change:

The Discovery of Global Warming - A History

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by radioranger

you guys on the left are always the first to go violent , why not promote the free things first ? you might get more on board.

A) What on earth makes you think I'm anywhere on the left?

B) Define free. Driving a small, efficient car rather than an oversized gas hog, or replacing your incandescent bulbs with CFLs or LEDs, or a whole list of other things, is BETTER than free, it saves you money. Yet there are a lot of people out there, many on the notional right, who come up wit all sorts of silly reasons not to do them.

[MetroMPG]

I can't believe this thread is up to 792 posts. (Oops! 793)

That's a lot of hot air. Haven't you all sorted this out yet?

Go back to modding your cars! :P

[gone-ot]

...although about a totally different subject, Shakespeare said it so appropriately, "...much ado about nothing..."

[radioranger]

Most of this is in reaction to other stuff going on, not a lot of logic here when our brilliant govt wastes so much, then tells us to be efficient, so they can have more, there was a local green guy here on the radio a while back , and then he's talking about the global warming conference he's flying to in europe, give me a break !!

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by radioranger

...not a lot of logic here when our brilliant govt wastes so much, then tells us to be efficient, so they can have more...

The lack of logic is on your side. The point of efficiency is so that YOU can have more, not the government. I was talking to the neighbors' kid the other day. Drives a Dodge Ram pickup, which he says gets 12 mpg highway. So that means he's paying the government about 6 times as much in gas taxes as I am, even before figuring that he commutes to his low-wage job, while I telecommute.

Likewise with everything else: the neighbors' power bills are upwards of $100, mine hovers around $40, yet I don't pay any more in taxes because of it. I just have an extra $60 every month to spend on things I enjoy... Fact is, I can't think of a single case in which me being more efficient causes the government to have more money.

[Arragonis]

A thread walks into a bar.

The bartender says, “We don’t serve threads in here.”

The thread walks outside, ties a knot in the middle of his body, brushes out the strands at the bottom and heads back into the bar.

The bartender says, “Aren’t you the thread I just threw out of here?”

The rope replies, “No, I’m a frayed knot.”

Checking out again from this thread, peace and respect to all whatever your views - hope to tap with you on other threads, about cars.

Let this one lie fallow.

Cheers.

[TheEnemy]

Originally Posted by Arragonis

What is it you feel you are denying ?

I don't actually know... I have just been called one a few times

[suspectnumber961]

Somewhat related are govt efficiency standards?

Just installed a 12K btu window AC unit....rated at better efficiency than the old one...but decided to cover all openings in the outer casing with window screen to keep debris out.

They test these ACs when new in a lab...but don't account for degradation of performance over time due to clogging and so forth. Also glued some wire mesh over the front to avoid damage to the condenser fins.

New water heater installed....old one lasted 10 yrs as did the one before it....problem is that it cost over 2Xs as much...has an electronic temp control that is less accurate than the old style...and will likely only last another 10 yrs.

Originally Posted by radioranger

Most of this is in reaction to other stuff going on, not a lot of logic here when our brilliant govt wastes so much, then tells us to be efficient, so they can have more, there was a local green guy here on the radio a while back , and then he's talking about the global warming conference he's flying to in europe, give me a break !!

[radioranger]

I hear you on that, solar water heating is so easy. I used to live on my boat , the marina had black piping on the dock , in the summer I had to run the water a good five minutes to get it cool enough to shower with, I'm all for going solar for lots of things, a water tank in your attic would supply almost all your normal warm water for a good 6 months a year, and if plumbed properly could serve as a sprinkler system pretty easily too. If the epa wanted to really help the earth they would get after the congressmen who let companies bring in chinese stuff made the most polluting way possible. it is very easy for china to ship us toxic waste by powdering it and putting it in the plastic stuff we buy. with the worsening economy though and the only jobs in sales selling this junk we are in trouble, I've been trying to find American or at least japanese wheel bearings for the escort and it hasnt been easy .