Just rode in a VOLT!

[Frank Lee]

ohm mani pad meh oooooooooohhhhhhhmmmmmmmm....................

[autoteach]

Well, the long and short of it is that the politicians are all worthless (almost, there might be a couple that arent). As for the thread getting political, the whole existence of hybrids is political. We are subsidizing the production and purchase of these machines, and, truth be told, they really are not what they are cracked up to be. If this is what we had:
1977 Honda Civic CVCC Vintage Print Ad

And this is what we have now, 25/36mpg for a 2011 civic.

I am most certain that we have had the technology, and had we developed technology like this over the last 34 years of model years, 50 mpg would be pretty standard. Granted, weights have gone up, hp, electronics, and other crap has gone up, but should it negate the possibility of getting 50mpg from a gasoline car? I think the politics started a long time ago, long before we were debating the Government Motors Volt.

[Frank Lee]

Politicians are a reflection of society; we get the gummint we deserve.

If the masses wanted 50mpg cars, they'd have them, and they'd have had them since at least the '30s. But they don't.

[autoteach]

I was teaching my students this. I called it the law of supply and demand. If we demand it, they will supply it. We demand wasteful cars and we get them.

[roflwaffle]

Originally Posted by autoteach

Well, the long and short of it is that the politicians are all worthless (almost, there might be a couple that arent). As for the thread getting political, the whole existence of hybrids is political. We are subsidizing the production and purchase of these machines, and, truth be told, they really are not what they are cracked up to be.

What do you think they should be?

Originally Posted by autoteach

If this is what we had:
1977 Honda Civic CVCC Vintage Print Ad

And this is what we have now, 25/36mpg for a 2011 civic.

If you're going to compare the two then you should use the same (unadjusted) figures, which is ~39/48mpg for the 2011 civic, pretty close to the 41/54mpg for the old civic, and it weighs twice as much, accelerates faster, has more in the way of creature comforts, and all those fancy emissions controls too.

Originally Posted by autoteach

I am most certain that we have had the technology, and had we developed technology like this over the last 34 years of model years, 50 mpg would be pretty standard. Granted, weights have gone up, hp, electronics, and other crap has gone up, but should it negate the possibility of getting 50mpg from a gasoline car? I think the politics started a long time ago, long before we were debating the Government Motors Volt.

There are a few cars that get 50mpg using the same metric the old civic pulled 50mpg, but there aren't many that can pull 40mpg on the adjusted EPA tests w/o being hybrids.

[NHRABill]

Originally Posted by roflwaffle

The energy needed to build a new fuel efficient car is way less than the energy you're using to drive your chevy. You could also buy a used compact car and fix that up if you're really worried about the energy used in building it, but I have a feeling you don't really care. And if you don't, why say that you do? I don't give two ****s about pollution and if anyone asks I won't BS about why I don't. Don't hide behind some BS about a new car taking more energy to make than your chevy will use in fuel, just say you don't care.

Wow that is a really uneducated opinion of a response. I guess fenders and doors just come like that and there is no resources used to create them. Most people would be in shock as to how much energy goes into producing the smallest of items. If I didn't care about my impact in regards to emissions I guess I would drive my 7mpg 6-71 supercharged Corvette around town seen as it does not need to pass the state required tests due to its age. I will lease and toss away vehicles like they are trash evey 3 years because I can afford to and not purchase the monthly passes to take the train into the city, idling in the Lincoln tunnel will knock 15 mins off my train ride and is so much better for the enviroment. I am not a tree hugger, if costs and waste can be cut I will do so I call it being responsible there is no need to put a label on it.

Instead of playing the Monday morning quarterback and blaming the cars of the past by bashing the present lineups PROVE that you want to be more responsible and purchase a vehicle based on its Safety, Efficenciy and cleanliness. If you Need a truck buy a efficient Hybrid, If you need a compact car buy the best mileage you can find. If you only need one vehicle to do the Job of 3 because you only drive 12miles per average day, buy responsibly or not at all. We hear the words supply and demand a lot but if you do not need a new vehicle don't buy one. Being a mechanical person with a hobbie of rebuilding cars, I chose not to add to the demand for a vehicle that can tow a 6,000 lbs trailer 12 times a year, I simply revived one lessening the need for another truck to be manufactured.

I do understand not everyone can rebuild a car to meet their needs and that new ones will always be made. My needs for a family caris something that is safe and efficient. It will be used in addition to my current truck, and used average of 10-20 miles a day maybe 6,000- 8,000 miles a year tops and it needs to fit 3 people. The Volt would fit my families needs and I could use it daily without using any gasoline whatsoever. I would still need a truck for towing and the 4x4 beach driving but only for a few thousand miles a year.

For my needs a Volt would be the perfect choice this is why I plan to purchase one in the future and not use any gas. in the mean time I will not add to the demand for a new vehicle that is only slightly better in MPG then what I currently get. Top speed of my daily drive is 40mph in a 1 mile stretch rest of the time it is 25mph not many cars will do better than the 12-15mpg I get in my old beater except the Volt.

[bennelson]

I do believe that "embodied energy" is a legitimate concern of new car construction.

It was an especially hot topic right when the Prius came out.

People should be concerned about e-waste, manufacturing pollution, etc.

I also think that you have to divide car purchasing into NEW vs USED catagories. Here's why.

A while back, I was talking to a Prius owner. He loves his car. He takes great care to get very good fuel economy. He washes it all the time, does great maintenance, etc, etc.
I told him that I was not interested in buying a Prius, as I already had a better than average fuel economy vehicle, it is paid for, and I should be able to still put another 100,000 miles on it. To me, it wasn't worth shelling out all that money on a new car to get better (but not say double or triple) the fuel economy I was already getting.

Now this is where I actually "got it".
He said "Ah, but I was planning on buying a NEW CAR ANYWAYS.. AND keeping it for a LONG TIME. The Prius will be the lowest cost of ownership and save the most gas in the long-term."

So the moral of the story is:
It's not what car you buy or drive. It's what car you buy or drive VS what ELSE you would be using.

So, the Volt really isn't about folks who area already driving a 1992 Civic. It's about people who would be buying a new car in the first place.
And it's not even about average fuel economy or cost per mile. There are lots of other reasons that people drive one car over another - style, image, seating capacity, range, comfort, brand name, etc.

And back to "Supply and Demand" - keep in mind that SUPPLY AND DEMAND are not simply invisible market forces. They can be artificially manipulated. That's why there are so many car commercials on television. (I think automobile dealers/manufacturers may be the biggest advertiser on TV.)

Advertising stimulates demand for a specific brand and product. One of the reasons why SUVs are so popular is that they have been very well advertised. They have been advertised, because they are more profitable (compared to small cars) for the auto manufacturers, who are in business to make money.

Similarly, tax rebates and governmental incentives can influence supply and demand by changing the price point of the product on the supply/demand curve. (I am not debating if tax breaks are right or wrong, simply that they change the end price, which changes supply/demand.)
Remember, it also wasn't too long ago that tax breaks greatly encouraged the purchase of SUVs!

[tjts1]

GE is buying 12,000 Chevy Volts.

[bennelson]

Hmmm.

That solves the chicken vs egg of electric cars and public charging stations.

GE makes one of the new charging stations that folks are trying to get out to the public infrastructure.

Getting both EVs and charging stations out at the same time this way seems to make sense.

[roflwaffle]

Originally Posted by NHRABill

Wow that is a really uneducated opinion of a response. I guess fenders and doors just come like that and there is no resources used to create them.

Bullsheeet Billy! Bullsheeet! I never said a car used no energy to make, I just said it would probably use less than it takes to fuel your chebby.

On average the embodied energy of a car is something like 72,000kWh give or take. A gallon of gas is ~37kWh, so you would need to use ~2,000 gallons of gas less to cover the energy costs of a brand new automobile, probably less, ~1,000+ gallons for a smaller new car, which is ~30k miles of driving in your chebby. Besides, if you're really worried about it that much then go fix up a used fuel efficient car and use that. It's already been built.

Originally Posted by NHRABill

Instead of playing the Monday morning quarterback and blaming the cars of the past by bashing the present lineups PROVE that you want to be more responsible and purchase a vehicle based on its Safety, Efficenciy and cleanliness.

Bullsheeet Billy! Bulsheeet! I never said I wanted to be responsible. I just said I'm tired of the Bullsheeet from people like you. You aren't using any less energy by driving your chebby instead of a used fuel efficient car, and you probably aren't saving energy versus a new compact car unless you drive you guzzlers less than 30k miles over the entire time you'll own whatever guzzlers you happen to have.

If you like to drive your chebby, then just say so. I don't really give a **** about that. What bugs me is when people make up BS to validate what they're doing.