Looking for help building a Gas Vapor system

[pgfpro]

Originally Posted by racprops

Interesting.

So what car, what engine and what MPG are you getting and I see the Nitro how has that worked for you?

OR is this your car:

MisFit Talon - '91 Eagle Talon TSi
Team Turbocharged!
90 day: 43.87 mpg (US)

I take it a small 4 cylinder??

Rich

Its the Misfit Talon.

I'm running a 2.0L 4G63 Mitsubishi.

Its AWD auto so there is a ton of drivetrain loss. The best tank is 47mpg. The average is 43 mpg.

The engine is highly modified. Some of the mods.

Modified 1g turbo pistons, spray-guided crown
Ultra Lean Burn system.
Modified head, spray-guided high heat direct port.
Custom camshafts.
Single Intake Valve for Swirl improve combustion.
Intake manifold, high heat direct port w/adjustable port angle injection.

I'm using the turbo for the heat source to help atomize the fuel. Also I have experimented with heated EGR and cold EGR.

One other thing I have been doing for the last few months is using "auto paint waste solvent" as a bio-fuel. This lowers my fuel mileage by a couple mpg do to the high amounts of acetone.

The car is a dual purpose vehicle Race/FE. So when I race it I remove all the FE items. Then it is more like a conventional race engine.

[Hersbird]

Originally Posted by racprops

OK I am giving up on the site and this thread.

First NO ONE hnere has ever build a Vapor system.

Second no one here seems to even have any idea out side the box.

Third we are not even discussing the idea of what power might be had with 100% vapor of a gal of gasoline.

How about this:

How much does 1 gallon of liquid gasoline displace as a vapor? The saturated vapor volume of an average gallon of liquid gasoline when fully evaporated is 160 gallons of vapor at 60° F and sea level. When you convert 1 gallon of gasoline into 160 gallons of highly combustible fuel vapor you increase your nation’s fuel supply by 16,000% (16,000% of 1 is 160). If you paid $5 for just one gallon of liquid gasoline you would actually only be paying $0.03 (3 cents) per gallon of fuel vapor.

How can you convert 1 gallon of liquid gasoline fuel into 160 gallons of gasoline vapor and increase your fuel supply by 16,000%? There are two known and proven ways to convert liquid gasoline into fuel vapor. One is to heat the liquid fuel before it enters the engine. The other is using ultrasonic nebulizer technology.

It is a well documented fact that air pollution from internal combustion engines is caused by unburned carbon fuel. Today, all gasoline powered vehicles burn only finely divided particles or droplets that are sprayed from the carburetor or fuel injectors, into the engine cylinders. This is a very wasteful process of converting gasoline or diesel to energy. 20-30 % efficiency at best. Converting liquid gasoline to a gasoline vapors will easily give 5 times the mpg and near zero emissions.

In the old days engines ran very lean as demonstrated by the fuel needle valve. In the old days just 1 tiny needle valve did the work of 6 to 8 fuel injectors. In the old days all engines ran on a much leaner amount of (less) fuel.

All internal combustion engines were made to run on highly combustible vapor, not liquid. It is well known that fuel-lean running improves the fuel efficiency of all vehicles. In the old days, under cruising conditions, the carburetor engines always ran lean – about 15% excess air. In the old days liquid fuel was reduced (made leaner) to finely divided particles or droplets before they enter the combustion chamber above the pistons. The carburetors reduced the liquid fuel into a very lean fuel mist before the fuel entered the combustion chamber above the pistons. Very high gas mileage is achieved by simply reducing liquid fuel into what all combustion engine need – gas vapor.

Vapor burns much cleaner than gasoline and has a higher octane rating. A lean running engine (ie, an engine using more air than fuel) has a cooler combustion process than the typical ECM engine with a preset (never deviating) chemically correct mixture of 14.6 air : 1 fuel.

In the early 1930s, Charles Nelson Pogue equipped a Ford V8 coupe with a vapor carburetor he designed and built and got over 200 MPG. He drove the V8 Ford from Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada to Vancouver B.C. Canada. He traveled 1879.5 miles on just 14.5 gallons of gasoline (the entire distance on just 3/4 of a 20 gallon tank of fuel) A standard carburetor used 106.5 gallons (or five, 20 gallon tanks of fuel) on the same trip.

In 1977, Tom Ogle demonstrated a 351 ci. Ford getting over 100 miles per gallon. He used a multiple fuel vaporizing system that had a 3 gallon tank. His system used heat to vaporize the liquid fuel. He received patent number 4,177,779 on Dec. 11, 1979, which described “A fuel economy system for an internal combustion engine which, when installed in a motor vehicle, obviates the need for a conventional carburetor, fuel pump and gasoline tank. The system operates by using the engine vacuum to draw fuel vapors from a vapor tank through a vapor conduit to a vapor equalizer which is positioned directly over the intake manifold of the engine.”

This is pure unicorn stuff, no car was ever made let alone a trip in 1930, and patents aren't a sign of actually producing anything, just the idea that maybe someday it could be done. A little girl applied for and received the patent for "swinging side it side on a regular swingset".

Having a gallon vaporized into a larger volume doesn't change the BTU in that volume. It's just harder to store. Higher octane isn't better, technically it would be lower octane, the higher the octane the harder it is to burn. The air to fuel ratio is set to allow the converter to work, this is not an option for a modern car maker to ditch. As I said, this lean mixture may be the biggest help in these vapor carbs but the same thing can be achieved with programming in a FI car or with jets in a normal carb. There is nothing special there about vapor. I bet it is not cleaner then a normal raito in a normal modern car with converter. The Ford Raptor for instance actually cleans the air it uses... That's right, it's tailpipe HC levels are actually lower then the HC levels in air surrounding us all.

[freebeard]

One other thing I have been doing for the last few months is using "auto paint waste solvent" as a bio-fuel.

This strikes me the same way 'recycled toilet paper' does some other folk.

[pgfpro]

Originally Posted by freebeard

This strikes me the same way 'recycled toilet paper' does some other folk.

Why is that???

[teoman]

Oh dear.

Some of the info there is very very scary showing a complete lack of understanding. Like saying you could make 160 times more by vaporising the fuel. If that were true you could pull a vacuum on the fuel vapor and make it expand many many many more times in volume. It still will not change the amount of energy it contains.

You may be on to something on the combustion efficiency thoug. I am not an expert by any means, but if you can get the fuel to combust faster you can have better control over how the duration where you can extract energy from it. You will need to play with timing, injection rates and a lot of other stuff. Water injection can be used to slow the burn rate.

If you are really really serious about this, i recommend you do a bit of research in to ion sensing where the spark plugs are used to measure the pressure in the cylinder. That way you can see how fast the fuel burns (and hopefully you can see when the burning stops so you do not eject still burning gasses through the exhaust burning your exhaust valves).or find means of installing a pressure sensor on one of your cylinders.

It may be wise to befriend a good ecu tuner who is willing to work with you.

On a carbed engine unless you are running constant speed and constant load, it seems a. It difficult to tune the system. (I am more of a software guy myself so i may be biased).

[freebeard]

Originally Posted by pgfpro

Why is that???

It sounds dirty? Recycled toilet paper is made from post-consumer waste, the paint thinner is probably is probably not used and full of paint solids.

At least, one would hope...

[racprops]

Originally Posted by teoman

Oh dear.

Some of the info there is very very scary showing a complete lack of understanding. Like saying you could make 160 times more by vaporising the fuel. If that were true you could pull a vacuum on the fuel vapor and make it expand many many many more times in volume. It still will not change the amount of energy it contains.

You may be on to something on the combustion efficiency thoug. I am not an expert by any means, but if you can get the fuel to combust faster you can have better control over how the duration where you can extract energy from it. You will need to play with timing, injection rates and a lot of other stuff. Water injection can be used to slow the burn rate.

If you are really really serious about this, i recommend you do a bit of research in to ion sensing where the spark plugs are used to measure the pressure in the cylinder. That way you can see how fast the fuel burns (and hopefully you can see when the burning stops so you do not eject still burning gasses through the exhaust burning your exhaust valves).or find means of installing a pressure sensor on one of your cylinders.

It may be wise to befriend a good ecu tuner who is willing to work with you.

On a carbed engine unless you are running constant speed and constant load, it seems a. It difficult to tune the system. (I am more of a software guy myself so i may be biased).

My plan is to convert Gas to Vapor set the timing at 2 degrees after top dead center and see what happens.

As I plan of feeding it with a fuel injector and running IT (injector) off one of the injector pulses (or more as needed) It might be controllable, I also plan on have a controlled heat system so it too will operate as needed.

So it MIGHT work from idle with a easy clime to cruising speed, for full power the car may have to switch back to the stock system. I figure on that being a automatic switch on and off.

But as it seems 80% of all driving is at a sustained speed (Cruising) I figure it will give a major improvement in overall MPG.

The changing of the timing will be hard on most FI cars so the tuner may be needed.

For my testing I have a after marketed device that can do the work.

Rich

[teoman]

In that case i recommend you get an LPG injector, it is already gas compatible. At such high temperatures it may not last very long. But it will get you going.

LPG Gurus please

Mabye you could put a small insulating piece of plastic between the red part and the mechanical part.

[racprops]

The injector will be isolated from the hot parts and will only SUPPLY the fuel to the convertor. NOT inject the vapor as it cannot meter or control it.

Rich

[racprops]

My real problems is How long will it take to convert a small steady stream of gas??

Where can I get electric 12 volt heaters that can go to say 1000 degrees??

I need a air tight system that can handle 1000 degrees.

Then I need to add a little water to the hot vapor..to both cool it and to add a bit of steam to soften the combustion.

I also plan on a water jacket running around the cooling system again to cool the hot vapor back to a safer temperature but not too cool as it might re-condense into a liquid.

So how cool is right??

Rich