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Old 09-13-2013, 05:36 PM   #121 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyLugNut View Post
. . . from achieving greater fuel economy.

The current OBDII systems are just much more complex.

And, I do have extensive experience and knowledge of HHO and vapor engines. And no, they don't double your fuel mileage. They still must follow the laws of thermodynamics.
So the Fish carb, the Pouge carb, Tom Ogal, Stanley Mires, and Dozen of others are all faking it and lining??

Even Shell Engineers: Shell Opel

Read the whole article and see what they have done over the decades in MPG.

Grated these cars would never really be drivable in a real world and grated these were tested at a flying mile..IE At speed and then tested...

BUT they do show there is possibles.

OH BY the way do you know that the gas companies have been adding stuff JUST to fowl and stop vapor carbs...

Rich

 
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Old 09-13-2013, 05:55 PM   #122 (permalink)
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You must understand how the emission system works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by racprops View Post
That was one of the ideas I was considering.

Which is why the question on the PCM.

It is a stated fact by many automotive reports that the PCM has been programed to run dirty, to use more fuel than need just to keep the cat lit/hot.

There was (and I cannot put my hands on it, I have been researching these ideas for more that 10 years) a article/report supposedly written by the very man that invented the Chevy Tuned Port Intakes that originally it gave 45+ MPG and burned so clean there was no need for a CAT.

BUT as cats were mandatory and such great MPG was outlawed he was forced to detune it.

But that maybe why the Easter Egg "Lean Burn Cruse" was left in the PCM for those early cars.

There are so many such reports out there...

Rich
Manufacturers do not create a dirty engine just to clean it up with the catalytic converter (CAT). A modern three-way CAT needs a fuel mix right around lambda to be effective. This is because it must remove not just HC and CO but also NOx. When you run an engine lean, the CAT becomes ineffective. The older "clean" engines of the past ignored the non-controlled NOx output. I owned Chrysler's with lean burn engines, Honda's and Mitsubishi's with MCA Jet engines. For the time and technology, they achieved excellent fuel economy.

There is a fellow on here who is modding the engine of an Eagle Talon (Mitsubishi based engine) and getting tremendous results as well as relatively low NOx. This is due to the fact he is implementing many of the same methodologies of the fabled Smokey Engine - high enthalpy lean burn. He is up over 30:1 air/fuel ratio using a turbo and EGR. I have achieved 28:1 fuel ratio with a 3 cylinder normally aspirated Daihatsu gasoline engine using HHO as my source of hydrogen for augmentation.

In 1980, Tel Aviv University published a paper on learn burn flame fronts and the ability to initiate and continue combustion of up to 100:1 fuel/air ratio (methane fuel) with hydrogen augmentation and the addition of sufficient heat and turbulence. The Talon Owner is on the right track. If he can keep the flame front below 2300 degrees Kelvin, very little NOx will be produced. Now, all you must do is produce useful power.
 
Old 09-13-2013, 06:09 PM   #123 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyLugNut View Post
Manufacturers do not create a dirty engine just to clean it up with the catalytic converter (CAT). A modern three-way CAT needs a fuel mix right around lambda to be effective. This is because it must remove not just HC and CO but also NOx. When you run an engine lean, the CAT becomes ineffective. The older "clean" engines of the past ignored the non-controlled NOx output. I owned Chrysler's with lean burn engines, Honda's and Mitsubishi's with MCA Jet engines. For the time and technology, they achieved excellent fuel economy.

There is a fellow on here who is modding the engine of an Eagle Talon (Mitsubishi based engine) and getting tremendous results as well as relatively low NOx. This is due to the fact he is implementing many of the same methodologies of the fabled Smokey Engine - high enthalpy lean burn. He is up over 30:1 air/fuel ratio using a turbo and EGR. I have achieved 28:1 fuel ratio with a 3 cylinder normally aspirated Daihatsu gasoline engine using HHO as my source of hydrogen for augmentation.

In 1980, Tel Aviv University published a paper on learn burn flame fronts and the ability to initiate and continue combustion of up to 100:1 fuel/air ratio (methane fuel) with hydrogen augmentation and the addition of sufficient heat and turbulence. The Talon Owner is on the right track. If he can keep the flame front below 2300 degrees Kelvin, very little NOx will be produced. Now, all you must do is produce useful power.
I have read adding a little water injection can help lower the burn temp and lower NOX.

Rich
 
Old 09-13-2013, 06:13 PM   #124 (permalink)
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I think you read too much into the whole conspiracy world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by racprops View Post
So the Fish carb, the Pouge carb, Tom Ogal, Stanley Mires, and Dozen of others are all faking it and lining??

Even Shell Engineers: Shell Opel

Read the whole article and see what they have done over the decades in MPG.

Grated these cars would never really be drivable in a real world and grated these were tested at a flying mile..IE At speed and then tested...

BUT they do show there is possibles.

OH BY the way do you know that the gas companies have been adding stuff JUST to fowl and stop vapor carbs...

Rich
Additives have been put into gasoline to control vapor pressure and the consequential output of smog producing HC (hydrocarbons). They still evaporate if given the proper conditions. I have used leaded and un-leaded gasoline in my vapor systems. The E10 found locally works even better. E85, when I can get it, is by far the most effective ( low evaporation energies for ethanol ). Collection of heat from the cooling system as well as the exhaust coupled with platinum catalysts ( quite expensive I know ) give you the required vapors plus a measurable amount of synthetic natural gas ( Coal Gas - in years past ).

I can evaporate the longest chain tar molecules if I wanted to. There is no conspiracy.

And I am not discounting the work of Ogle, Fish and others - things just don't work like they supposed they did. And believe me, I bought plans from the back of Popular Science Magazine and built them to the best of my capabilities as a teenager. Don't discount the fact I was a teen, I was the winner of several awards in woodworking, plastic and metal. And I had completed several college level classes in physics, chemistry and mathematics. So I knew my stuff - the advantage of being an immigrant kid with a speech impediment - I had no distractions.
 
Old 09-13-2013, 06:31 PM   #125 (permalink)
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This is true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by racprops View Post
I have read adding a little water injection can help lower the burn temp and lower NOX.

Rich
And the reasons are quite complex. But, with the chance of producing errors in simplifying . . .

It is not just simply the quenching ability of the water's heat capacity, but also the fact that at 1200 deg C, thermolysis of water results in H and OH molecules who's reaction it is to broaden the flame front and reduce the unit heat release (flux), ie. cooling.

As early as WW2, engine designers looking into water injection saw a measurable amount of reduced BSFC (brake-specific-fuel-consumption) using seemingly small amounts of water at full throttle. The gain was small (2%) but measurable.

NOx can also be controlled through time - if the combustion reaction is rapid enough, the relatively lazy Nitrogen atom loses out in combining with Oxygen before temperatures are diminished. A paper by College of the Desert, showed minimal NOx production in the lean running of their hydrogen fueled engine. This was due in large part to the rapid combustion rate of hydrogen (roughly an order of magnitude greater than hydrocarbons ).

EGR is a more useful system since the exhaust stream is largely H2O and incombustible CO2. The problem is precision of control.
 
Old 09-13-2013, 06:34 PM   #126 (permalink)
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"I think you read too much into the whole conspiracy world."

Perhaps, it is hard to looking into any of this without running into the claims of suppression and so on.

It does seem funny that every failed device cry's suppression...or it seems.

Rich
 
Old 09-13-2013, 06:39 PM   #127 (permalink)
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What about the use of water injection in Fighter air craft?

They reported more HP for combat.

Rich

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyLugNut View Post
And the reasons are quite complex. But, with the chance of producing errors in simplifying . . .

It is not just simply the quenching ability of the water's heat capacity, but also the fact that at 1200 deg C, thermolysis of water results in H and OH molecules who's reaction it is to broaden the flame front and reduce the unit heat release (flux), ie. cooling.

As early as WW2, engine designers looking into water injection saw a measurable amount of reduced BSFC (brake-specific-fuel-consumption) using seemingly small amounts of water at full throttle. The gain was small (2%) but measurable.

NOx can also be controlled through time - if the combustion reaction is rapid enough, the relatively lazy Nitrogen atom loses out in combining with Oxygen before temperatures are diminished. A paper by College of the Desert, showed minimal NOx production in the lean running of their hydrogen fueled engine. This was due in large part to the rapid combustion rate of hydrogen (roughly an order of magnitude greater than hydrocarbons ).

EGR is a more useful system since the exhaust stream is largely H2O and incombustible CO2. The problem is precision of control.
 
Old 09-13-2013, 06:42 PM   #128 (permalink)
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"Manufacturers do not create a dirty engine just to clean it up with the catalytic converter (CAT)."

NO I did not mean that I mean they could run cleaner BUT to insure the cat is hot to stop smog they have to let some fuel though to keep it hot even when there is no use.

And it is a mandatory device so they build to it.

Rich
 
Old 09-13-2013, 06:45 PM   #129 (permalink)
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That is simply a measure of extending the detonation limits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by racprops View Post
What about the use of water injection in Fighter air craft?

They reported more HP for combat.

Rich
More fuel and air. To the limits of detonation. Water injection just extends the detonation limits. This has nothing to do with fuel efficiency as BSFC often goes down. But, it does help you win the race - or survive combat.
 
Old 09-13-2013, 06:52 PM   #130 (permalink)
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I would like to ask what you have found with "And, I do have extensive experience and knowledge of HHO and vapor engines. And no, they don't double your fuel mileage. They still must follow the laws of thermodynamics."

I would be happy with 20/30% improvements.

Rich

 
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