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Old 11-11-2015, 10:34 PM   #2321 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by e*clipse View Post
thingstodo - I'd just like to add a big thank you for this amazing testing you're doing.
Your welcome! But save the thanks until the end, when it works

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Old 11-12-2015, 03:02 PM   #2322 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thingstodo View Post
Your welcome! But save the thanks until the end, when it works
Actually, whether is works or not honest "this is what it's doing" testing is extremely valuable. Probably more valuable than "I tried it and it works great" type testing.

Looking at your pics, I'm more impressed. I need to get out to the shop and get to work on my stuff - LOL!

- E*clipse
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Old 11-12-2015, 04:03 PM   #2323 (permalink)
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Probably too late, but Google KOSTOV motors say using 10 inch 250 volt motor. Somewhere in the data string there were charts for temp rises vs watts used.

Yes I know these are brushed motors but I haven't seen an equivalent chart except for GE industrial 3 phase which may not be applicable.

Happy hunting
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Old 11-12-2015, 05:21 PM   #2324 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotrsko View Post
Probably too late, but Google KOSTOV motors say using 10 inch 250 volt motor. Somewhere in the data string there were charts for temp rises vs watts used.
I found a bunch of data on temperature for the windings and armature, but none (so far) for the commutator.

This link Escaladus Interruptus and the Catellier Effect - EVTV Motor Verks shows some measured temperatures for light duty on a Warp 9, topping out at 204F. That seems quite low for a running temperature, let alone a max temperature.

I will keep looking ... I *KNOW* I have read this number somewhere!

Maybe I should just email Netgain.
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Old 11-13-2015, 06:33 PM   #2325 (permalink)
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I thought it was 205 C

On the KOSTOV I think max comm temp is 265c. I'm retty surethe warning light goes on at 215 C
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Old 11-14-2015, 10:43 AM   #2326 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotrsko View Post
I thought it was 205 C

On the KOSTOV I think max comm temp is 265c. I'm retty surethe warning light goes on at 215 C
Just checking - are you talking about the temperature of the windings (where there is normally a thermistor or an RTD to read the temperature) or the temperature of the commutator, the mechanical contact with the brushes?

You have a light that comes on at 215C - what drives that light?

I am worried about the commutator temperature, since I'll be using relatively low voltage and the current will .. hopefully .. be 300+ amps for half an hour at a time. But I would be interested in any method to measure the temperature of the commutator besides an Infrared thermometer. I had to take the shroud off the motor to enable the thermometer to check temperature, so there is no forced air cooling ... which makes the temperature higher than it should be.

Netgain has not responded to my email as yet.

As I mentioned in the last post, the brush testing EVTV did between stock brushes and Helwig split-top brushes showed a large difference in commutator temperature spinning an unloaded motor. But that's the only actual data I can locate on commutator temperature.

When I get set up I'll log the data and see how high it gets. Perhaps I will post the question on EVDL or DIYelectriccar. It's worth a shot.
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Old 11-14-2015, 11:56 AM   #2327 (permalink)
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my Kostov has a click temp switch on the brush holder that is set when the holder obviously gets to 215C which turns on an idiot light in the car that says "temp". FWIW they think or have measured 100% duty cycle temps to be less than this amount. the idiot light get checked during start up, but has never come on driving. I did test it once with a hair dryer.

100% duty cycle is 250 amps at 192v. the armature maximum they recommend is 450 amps at 250v for 4 minutes on an 11" 250 so I extrapolated for my 192 and use 425 max amps. by their charts this is less than 265C comm bar temp. I do pull 450 amps for 3 1/2 minutes accelerating to 65 up a 4.5% hill. I have pushed 800 battery amps @ 180 sag volts, but get this burning clutch and wiring smell before the controller shuts down my throttle requests.

now this leads to the rocket scientist question: where exactly do you want to see what temperature on the comm. the brushes got way hotter, there is this little plasma arc thing going on, some parts are not conducting and therefore radiating heat.......I digress.

so: what is the S60 rating? or worse case what is the motor rated for in watts or HP? If you stay under those figures, the comm should be OK for temps

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Old 11-15-2015, 10:21 AM   #2328 (permalink)
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I'm done with adding a datastream. I could change it to fit the rtd format, but that format isn't well suited to the 3 phase variables. The format is:
char RTDataString[] = "TR=xxx CR=xxx CF=xxx PW=xxx HS=xxxx RT=xxxx FB=xx BA=xxx AH=xxx.x\r\n";

Throttle, current reference, current feedback, pulse width, heatspreader temp, raw throttle, fault bits, battery amps, and amp hours.

I'm more inclined to do something like this for the output of the datastream:

The following variables are being streamed:
variable_1 variable_2 variable_3 variable_4
xxx xxx xxx xxx<cr/lf>
xxx xxx xxx xxx<cr/lf>
xxx xxx xxx xxx<cr/lf>
xxx xxx xxx xxx<cr/lf>
xxx xxx xxx xxx<cr/lf>
xxx xxx xxx xxx<cr/lf>
xxx xxx xxx xxx<cr/lf>
xxx xxx xxx xxx<cr/lf>


That way, when the data is outputted to excel, the top row would be the variable names
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Old 11-15-2015, 12:46 PM   #2329 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotrsko View Post
my Kostov has a click temp switch on the brush holder that is set when the holder obviously gets to 215C which turns on an idiot light in the car that says "temp". FWIW they think or have measured 100% duty cycle temps to be less than this amount. the idiot light get checked during start up, but has never come on driving. I did test it once with a hair dryer.
Excellent! The only 'switch' on the Netgain 9 brushes is for wear. The temperature switch on the Netgain 9 is for the stator temperature - which is why I asked. 215C is my answer. Perhaps not for Helwig brushes, but for similar brushes on a similar sized motor.

Quote:
100% duty cycle is 250 amps at 192v. the armature maximum they recommend is 450 amps at 250v for 4 minutes on an 11" 250 so I extrapolated for my 192 and use 425 max amps. by their charts this is less than 265C comm bar temp. I do pull 450 amps for 3 1/2 minutes accelerating to 65 up a 4.5% hill. I have pushed 800 battery amps @ 180 sag volts, but get this burning clutch and wiring smell before the controller shuts down my throttle requests.
'burning clutch and wiring smell' Hopefully the wiring smell is not the varnish in the motor, but the wiring to and from? 800 amps sounds like you are pushing pretty hard.

The netgain numbers are in their FAQ here http://www.go-ev.com/PDFs/005_008_SU_NGT_FAQ.pdf

But there are some contradictory numbers in here http://www.go-ev.com/PDFs/001_12_Fact_Sheet_WarP_9.pdf

What I will start with is:
Quote:
' the 9 motors are actually rated at 450 Amps for 5 minutes,
225 Amps for 1 hour,
and 190 Amps continuous duty.
We believe these are conservative ratings. '
I'm not using a DC controller. I have 3, in various stages of broken and needing repair. For now I'm running 'across the line' on 2s3p 12V deep cycle batteries with a gigavac contactor and a 350 amp fuse. 27.6V will not overspeed the unloaded motor, but will put energy into the DC motor to spin the AC motor that is coupled to it.

I'm trying to test the AC controller at load. The AC controller has a 125V pack on it, which is too high to run the Warp9 without a controller. To minimize the current draw on the gigavac when it closes across the 24V pack, I actually start spinning the AC/DC motors coupled with the AC controller.

Quote:
now this leads to the rocket scientist question: where exactly do you want to see what temperature on the comm. the brushes got way hotter, there is this little plasma arc thing going on, some parts are not conducting and therefore radiating heat.......I digress.
I want to make sure I don't melt something. 215C seems like a good start. No DC controller = NO CURRENT LIMIT. So I am the control system - sensing with an infrared thermometer, actuating the gigavac to stop the DC motor.

The contact point from the brush to the commutator would seem to me to be the highest temperature and the point at which you would see damage to the brushes or to the commutator. Using the infrared thermometer is not overly accurate, but neither is the rest of my test rig ..

Quote:
so: what is the S60 rating? or worse case what is the motor rated for in watts or HP? If you stay under those figures, the comm should be OK for temps
225 amps for 1 hour, but my 24V pack won't last for an hour.
400 amps for 5 minutes. I can see trying that out, if the old deep cycle batteries will put out 400A for 5 minutes.
HP was listed at 32.3 HP (72 Volts, 335 Amps). Which is the contradiction I mentioned above.
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Old 11-15-2015, 12:55 PM   #2330 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPaulHolmes View Post
I'm done with adding a datastream
Great news!

Quote:
I could change it to fit the rtd format, but that format isn't well suited to the 3 phase variables. The format is:
char RTDataString[] = "TR=xxx CR=xxx CF=xxx PW=xxx HS=xxxx RT=xxxx FB=xx BA=xxx AH=xxx.x\r\n";

Throttle, current reference, current feedback, pulse width, heatspreader temp, raw throttle, fault bits, battery amps, and amp hours.

I'm more inclined to do something like this for the output of the datastream:

The following variables are being streamed:
variable_1 variable_2 variable_3 variable_4
xxx xxx xxx xxx<cr/lf>
xxx xxx xxx xxx<cr/lf>
xxx xxx xxx xxx<cr/lf>
xxx xxx xxx xxx<cr/lf>
xxx xxx xxx xxx<cr/lf>
xxx xxx xxx xxx<cr/lf>
xxx xxx xxx xxx<cr/lf>
xxx xxx xxx xxx<cr/lf>


That way, when the data is outputted to excel, the top row would be the variable names
That sounds like a very clear and simple method. It's not quite a CSV file, but the only thing you give up is no embedded spaces in the variable names. That's OK with me

Looking forward to receiving the new firmware.

I bought a couple of 10-turn 5K pots to use for 'bench throttles' ... and PUT THEM AWAY somewhere! I guess what's obvious one day is a mystery the next. When I find them, I'll get them mounted and put into use. But for now my throttle is still DOA.

If I can't locate them by tomorrow, I'll go and buy 2 more. SIGH! I HATE getting OLD!

I have a small circuit that has resistors 'before' and 'after' the 5K pot to give the controller a 0.5V - 4.5V 'hall effect' signal. All of the hall effect sensors that I could find have a max 270 degree range. If someone has a line on a multi-turn version - I'm interested!

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