Should Scott Walker Become creditable & give up his & the legislatures pensions?

[rmay635703]

I figure since this is popular here in WisConSin it deserves attention in the irrelevant off topic forum.

Since our gov seems to believe teachers should give up collective bargaining rights and pay 50% toward their pension shouldn't he at the least do the same?

I don't feel he is remotely creditable to not practice what he preaches, I also don't think the roughly 700million plus we pay direct and indirect to management, legislators, governor, superintendants, judges and others should be overlooked. Perhaps stopping the 1million dollar pay positions with pay caps would be a better solution?

[Ryland]

He also wants to, in the same bill, take away health care for elderly and poor and the right for state workers to join together to object to any unfair treatment that they might receive, this right is why we have safe working conditions in everyones work place, why we have minimum wage, pensions and in turn social security, weekends, 40 hour work weeks, most of these were started in Wisconsin by unions, the things that you think of when you think of America we have because of Unions, they are not written in to our bill of rights or anything else, they are here because they were fought and died for and they can dissipater on a whim, just like some states are talking about cutting back or repealing child labor laws (another law that was created because of unions), nothing is set in stone and it can all dissapear before your very eyes if you aren't paying attention, it makes me glad that my state has had 100,000's of people show up in the last week to fill our capital and that some of our senators had enough sense to leave so the rest of us would have more then a few days to read the 140 pages that were being asked to be signed in to law, most people who were supposed to vote on this bill didn't have enough notice to read it fully before it was supposed to be voted on so how could they fully understand what was in it!

[Frank Lee]

People get the govt they deserve. Sometimes I think Americans have forgotten, don't appreciate, and no longer deserve what our forefathers built.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by Ryland

He also wants to, in the same bill, take away health care for elderly and poor and the right for state workers to join together to object to any unfair treatment that they might receive, this right is why we have safe working conditions in everyones work place,

nothing is set in stone and it can all dissapear before your very eyes if you aren't paying attention, it makes me glad that my state has had 100,000's of people show up in the last week to fill our capital and that some of our senators had enough sense to leave so the rest of us would have more then a few days to read the 140 pages that were being asked to be signed in to law, most people who were supposed to vote on this bill didn't have enough notice to read it fully before it was supposed to be voted on so how could they fully understand what was in it!

You forgot the part where he removes the ability of people (relatives) to intervene or even sue Nursing homes for abuse. You would no longer be able to remove them from the homes either. Nice touch

My statements were short and glazing but yes indeed this bill is a stinking republican jizz fest. All the things the republican party has been dreaming of since the 40's.

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

People get the govt they deserve. Sometimes I think Americans have forgotten, don't appreciate, and no longer deserve what our forefathers built.

If they voted republican certainly.

But... They really don't deserve the current government, they have been dumbed down to the point they can't know any better, the authority figures that should be role models are all corrupt and useless. And further the system is rigged, your vote really doesn't count as the current system works, unless of coarse you could motivate a mass of people so large as to overcome it which is very difficult indeed.

We would need someone to be able to stand up with truth and integrity against the current system and stand against what we are being told is the truth, and win a position of some significance in government. Then procede to clean house. Sadly people like that don't run and probably couldn't run do to the very high monetary requirements imposed on the system to keep outsiders out where they belong. The first fed reserve and fed income tax was thrown down by one determined man, Andrew Jackson, not a perfect or even very good person but he did what was right in that regard and was a hero for his time.

All this said, I think he should still give up his income and pension if he truly believes in all this garbage as should all those in the Wisconsin Legislature who believe in this thing.

Cheers
Ryan

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Ryland

...this right is why we have safe working conditions in everyones work place, why we have minimum wage, pensions and in turn social security, weekends, 40 hour work weeks, most of these were started in Wisconsin by unions, the things that you think of when you think of America we have because of Unions...

But you need to remember those other things we have because of unions. Like for instance the right to have your pay docked so the union bosses can contribute to their political buddies. Or (going back to the days when I worked union construction jobs) the right to sit around after you've done the union-sanctioned amount of work for the day, 'cause doing more would make your less-skilled union brothers look bad, or the right to sit on your butt waiting for a union electrician to run an extension cord...

As for those guaranteed wages & pensions, I work for myself. When times are bad, as they are now, my income is significantly less than it was a few years ago. Why should state/union workers go on getting the same high wages? (And likewise, why don't the union bosses insist that they get profit sharing when times are good?)

I'm sorry, but in my experience most union bosses (like most corporate CEOs, with whom they have more in common than with the rank-and-file membership), only care about increasing their own power. If they need to screw over their membership or the country in the process, they won't hesitate one heartbeat.

[user removed]

I learned a trade at 18 that made me a valuable commodity, and I was very good at my trade. I didn't need anything but a bent car and an air compressor and electricity. When I started working for someone else, they got half of the labor I produced and all of the parts profit. No benefits whatsoever.

They raised the labor rate but did not want to give us our half so everyone walked out of the job. There was no union, it was just a spontaneous reaction to getting screwed. They gave in that time but eventually they stopped paying us 50% of the labor charge.

I built cars on my own and started my own business. Learned a lot about running a business and got my arse kicked the first time. The second time I did better and my employees got a salary, full medical benefits and a 15% matching retirement contribution to their individual retirement accounts. Paid vacations and sick leave, as long as it was reasonable.

I understand the reason why unions were an essential part of the labor movement in the early 20th century. Management considered people as expendable tools of capital production. Use em up and let them go.

I also understand the problems involved with running a business and how unfair it is to work 60 hours a week for less than 70 cents and hour, living in an unheated building, with no hot water, so you can become debt free and financially strong, conditions no employee would tolerate for any length of time these days compared to 100 years ago.

To attribute the value of happy employees to the union movement demonstrates a biased attitude. In general this form of character assassination is used by both parties to get people to hate someone because they are a despicable tyrant or control the money supply, or control the job market. Maybe this was the case in the era of the giant monopolies of the early industrial era in the US but it is certainly not the case today.

Like all entities, unions must evolve into a useful partnership with the corporations and govt agencies they interact with or they risk obsolescence, especially if they act like a virus and kill the host that provides the essential capital supply for existence.

The northern states are seeing the results of the last 50 years of union dominance of industrial operations. The pendulum has swung towards the left this time and the CEOs and owners of the large manufacturing companies are looking elsewhere for profitable operations. If you were them you would do the same, when you are facing bankruptcy if you allow the status quo to continue.

Now the US faces its greatest threat of all the time since our existence. National bankruptcy is not a joke, or some empty threat. There are many examples to study in history. Khrushchev said "we will bury you". he didn't say how it would be done. but the US in its self righteous arrogance is now fighting the perpetual conflict in Afghanistan that bankrupted the old Soviet Union, and we are headed in the same direction form my perspective.

If you hate Democrats or Republicans, the problem is between your ears, and you have been programmed by propaganda as effectively as the Germans were in the 1930s.

WE have maxed out the US credit card, most of it was on the Democrats watch, so spare me the hypocrisy of trying to blame the Republicans, as that act renders your point as worthless.

If the govt of Wisconsin as well as the govts of many other states continue to allow a small percentage of their citizens to force them to continue on this course of financial disaster then every citizen in the US will suffer when the US dollar ponzi scheme dies and even those who were fiscally responsible loose their savings and retirement security.

WE don't have the national cojones to even decide to change the retirement age for Social Security for gods sake. Life expectancy in 1900 was 43 years. When SS passed in the 30s it was 62. Guess what, that was the retirement age. That meant half of the people paying into the system never saw a dime. Of course when you pay out benefits it's hard to complain about not living long enough to get your dime back when you did not pay in for 30 years.

My grandmother paid in 40 quarters. She paid in at 1%, a total of about $375 over 10 years. She got about $100 a month for 28 years from age 62 to age 90.

I would have to live to the age of 545 (no misprint) to receive the same benefit to money paid in ratio that she did.

If you want to look at govt gone wild, study the history of FDR's presidency.

Study the history of federal income taxes and the max rates at 90% + in the early 1950s when they actually tried to pay back the war debts from WW2.

Can you honestly tell me that inflation is as low as the govt tells us. Its only because housing values have collapsed.

Many of the northern states jacked up peoples property tax rates when times were "good". I read about a city bus driver making 100k a year in some north central city. Include benefits like retirement and medical insurance and he is making several times more money than I ever made in my lifetime, for driving a bus.

The localities in Michigan where the auto manufacturing companies were a significant part of the industrial base raised their property taxes to rates I have seen as high as 6% per year. Our local rate is .685% about 11% of their rate.

How can you pay 6% property taxes and 93% federal income taxes and stay alive, unless you are making many millions of dollars a year.

Do some research and see how many people actually make that much money a year. Let them pay the 70 trillion this country owes now and they will leave the country instead of paying the bill.

Go ahead, slap Bill Gates and Warren Buffet with a 99% pre death inheritance tax and see how much they spend on attorneys to prove its unconstitutional, while the rest of us poor citizens are sent a bill to pay for the govt's continued stupidity since they don't have the money to pay their attorneys.

regards
Mech

[user removed]

When Harry Truman left the presidency, his only pension was from military duty in WW1. He sold his memoirs and paid over 90% income taxes on the proceeds from that sale.

All he could afford to do was walk down the streets of Independence Missouri for the rest of his long life.

Maybe you should get all politicians to follow Harry's example, instead of trying to assault the reputation of the current governor of Wisconsin, who inherited the issue from his predecessors. You know like Obama is still blaming Bush for all the problems, even those created by the democratic controlled congress after 06.

regards
Mech

[tim3058]

My father was a Teamster til he retired recently - the union ran almost every company he worked for into the ground, one trucking company after another. Much like jamesqf's experience, my father had no choice but to slow down and take unneeded breaks or risk making the slackers look bad. Thats not efficiency, and thats not republicans fault. The reason my father's companies, the state budgets, and taxpayers are in the woes they are in is because democrats got in bed with the unions years ago buying votes by giving the unions whatever they wanted. Every Teamsters magazine my father ever got was gung-ho for democrats, republicans were the devil on wheels... with the rampant corruption, backroom political deals, and laziness from Jimmy Hoffa (former Teamsters boss) on down, its amazing that any party would set up laws to benefit these bullies

it makes me glad ... so the rest of us would have more then a few days to read the 140 pages that were being asked to be signed in to law, most people who were supposed to vote on this bill didn't have enough notice to read it fully before it was supposed to be voted on so how could they fully understand what was in it!

Too bad the same sentiment for reading bills and understanding them didn't exist in D.C., the health care(less) bill was 2000+ pages. They're all politicians, its just a game they play to win your heart.

All the things republicans have dreamed of since the 40s?
- private-sector jobs going overseas while state unions rake in the raises? (here in NY the teachers were protesting a pay freeze recently, while my father's company went under and laid off hundreds of people)
-private-sector retirement is you saving in a 401k, the state retirees are guaranteed the average of highest 3 years' salary -for life- paid by taxpayers?
-My parents paying $400+/month for COBRA health insurance in retirement, and then forced to pay taxes to keep the union bosses in power?
No those arent republican dreams. Thats the dream of state-employee unions. The governor's dream is merely an attempt to right the ship and make things equitable for all of his consituents - something I'd expect both parties to embrace

[tim3058]

Additionally, the new governor here in NY, Andrew Cuomo, is in the process of laying off some of the state workforce, freezing pay and hirings, and cutting state budgets across the board... including (gasp!) healthcare, transportation/construction, and education, all in an effort to keep the state out of bankruptcy (same problem as Wisconsin). Yet theres no national media coverage, no public-employee "riots", no calls for him to surrender his pay. Just a few NY-union TV ads complaining. Why is that? Does the outburst over Gov. Walker have more to do with his party affiliation? NY Gov. Cuomo has a (D) after his name, which apparently is a carte blanche to cut budgets without media coverage and riots (people here generally think he is doing whats best for the state). Gov. Walker is facing the same budget crisis, near-insolvency of the state, and a ballooning deficit, and is approaching the issue in much the same manner (albeit a more permanent solution-cripple the unions), yet gets the opposite reaction. Interesting...

[Jim-Bob]

I think ALL government workers should have their pay and benefits cut in order to balance the State and Federal budgets. I agree with the limitations that Walker wants to put on collective bargaining as it is a good way to balance the budget and a government job is not an entitlement. It's a job and should be subject to market forces and the health of the employer just like any other job. That being said, I also want to see pensions and benefits for out of office elected officials eliminated entirely. There is no reason a 1 term Congressman should get paid for life for 2 years of work. Retirement should be their responsibility to take care of just like anyone else. After we tackle that then maybe we can start cutting Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid benefits too. If we fail to do so the country will go broke and the benefits will disappear anyhow. It is better to do it now and limit the people affected to the recipients instead of letting it destroy everyone.