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View Poll Results: Should Scott walker and the legislature give up their pensions and health benefits?
Yes I think he and the legislature should volutarily give up all pay this year 7 26.92%
Yes I think the legislature should at least match the cuts and limits proposed to teachers 12 46.15%
Yes the 15% cuts and pension cuts should be across the board 8 30.77%
No he is too important 4 15.38%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-28-2011, 01:35 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Mark, you're just chanting your mantra again and again. The original poll is whether he and the legislature should cut their fat salaries, which by any standard are at least double what the average Wisconsin teacher makes. They're the low-hanging fruit which you continue to ignore.

Your hatred of public unions and teachers doesn't change the fact that the unions got them their benefits. Why do you focus on union benefits being bad, when in fact they're good? You're simply envious of their situation, and would rather bash on them than better your own situation and that of the majority of Americans, by supporting unions. What's DISGUSTING is the pitiful and often nonexistent retirement that the rest of the population has in comparison to teachers and state workers.

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Old 02-28-2011, 02:52 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SentraSE-R View Post
I'm continually impressed with the impossible logic presented by this topic's conservatives. Faced with Scott Walker's public and private comments, you continue to insist his position still has validity, and accuse everyone else of bias.
His position has validity because he is now the duly elected governor of the state. That's all that is necessary. The Left can have all the hissy fits and protests it wants - do they think that if they stage enough public temper tantrums he will change his mind? More likely they are terrified that it will become a popular issue in other states. Since they can't silence the public debate, their strategy is to try to drown it out with their screaming.

If they don't like their governor, the voters of Wisconsin can vote against him in the next election. That's legitimate; the Left is hoping for a counter-backlash. But the recent demonstrations are just a puerile spectacle, which has always been what the Left does when they don't get their way.

However the real issue is that the governor alone can't do much of anything without the support of the legislature. Who voted for them? Obviously it was a majority of the voters of Wisconsin.

What's driving the Left apopleptic is that the governor has enough political support to get legislation passed. Walker is their convenient target, the scapegoat. But the dirty little secret is that there is probably bipartisan support in the legislature.
 
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Old 02-28-2011, 03:45 PM   #103 (permalink)
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I for one wish people would quit using the "Thanks" button in political threads such as this as an "applause button" when someone else posts something that supports existing views.

But we've already talked about that, and I realize it's a pipe dream.

So I will also continue to wish for a unicorn to pull the ForkenSwift when the batteries sometimes get too low.
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Old 02-28-2011, 05:05 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MetroMPG View Post
I for one wish people would quit using the "Thanks" button in political threads such as this as an "applause button" when someone else posts something that supports existing views.

But we've already talked about that, and I realize it's a pipe dream.

So I will also continue to wish for a unicorn to pull the ForkenSwift when the batteries sometimes get too low.
Yup. While tempted, I have learned *not* to do that.

(I know where you can rent that unicorn, but I'll never tell!!!)

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Old 02-28-2011, 05:27 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MetroMPG View Post
I for one wish people would quit using the "Thanks" button in political threads such as this as an "applause button" when someone else posts something that supports existing views.

But we've already talked about that, and I realize it's a pipe dream.

So I will also continue to wish for a unicorn to pull the ForkenSwift when the batteries sometimes get too low.
Sorry, couldn't resist
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Old 02-28-2011, 06:52 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Your poll is biased, and the reason you initiated it was to promote your bias. At least you admit it to some extent, and that is admirable.
lets face it, I wasn't even trying to hide my bias, this thread was to vent frustration, over what I view as being a very terrible, unfortunate and hopeless situation.

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Originally Posted by Thymeclock View Post
Excuse me, but it was the populace of your state who elected Mr. Walker based upon the platform on which he ran. The people of your state of Wisconsin VOTED FOR IT. Governor Walker is a partisan politician, just as partisan as Democrat politicians are. Dollar bills don't line up on the sidewalk to vote! People do! That's called DEMOCRACY! (I can understand why those in the Democratic party would find this so galling - "when the shoe is on the other foot, it pinches"...)
That doesn't explain why a large number all of a sudden do not support his latest tactics.

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Then why are we reading this long diatribe from you about how awful it is? And what was the purpose of your poll? "Pity party"? "Sour grapes"? "Sore losers"?
Yes, its too bad independents couldn't win, sadly the system more or less prevents that possibility 47 times out of 48. A more euro voting method would allow greater numbers of parties. That view is wrong though, because obviously there are only liberals who are liberal on every regard or conservatives who are conservative on every regard.

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This is the quintessential Leftist position: if they didn't vote for our party they must be STUPID. The Left thinks everyone is stupid, and the Right thinks everyone is lazy. 'Twas ever thus. But your side lost the election, and now there is a backlash. That's the nature of politics. Yes it's ugly, perhaps even irrational, but that's the way it goes. Get over it. Sore losers, indeed...
If you say so it must be true, irrefutable and without bias.

My side hasn't yet won more than a couple elections though over a period of decades and I'm not sure they are really left in every way.

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Originally Posted by Thymeclock View Post
Don't bother. After your latest diatribe you made it clear why you posted the poll.

(BTW, "poles" are found in stadia and firehouses; "polls" are found in the realm of politics.)
I will anyway, but I only post polls when I see something that will be severely damaging to many people and am frustrated by the general inability of anyone remotely salt of the earth or normal to be successful within politics.

The people that most belong in politics would never run.
 
Old 02-28-2011, 06:54 PM   #107 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroMPG View Post
I for one wish people would quit using the "Thanks" button in political threads such as this as an "applause button" when someone else posts something that supports existing views.

But we've already talked about that, and I realize it's a pipe dream.

So I will also continue to wish for a unicorn to pull the ForkenSwift when the batteries sometimes get too low.
I will as well, along with those CNT lead acid batteries the guy from Canada keeps telling me are just around the corner next month.
 
Old 02-28-2011, 07:14 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thymeclock View Post
His position has validity because he is now the duly elected governor of the state. That's all that is necessary. The Left can have all the hissy fits and protests it wants - do they think that if they stage enough public temper tantrums he will change his mind? More likely they are terrified that it will become a popular issue in other states. Since they can't silence the public debate, their strategy is to try to drown it out with their screaming.
Somebody must be doing their job right if its causing screaming.

He is a servant, his position is only valid if he is serving the common good, if he is doing the popular serving himself notion and his buddies many will have no use for him.
As our founding fathers said a government should fear its people. Otherwise it will do disservice to them.

My great grandfather got to witness pinkertons shooting at union miners on strike. Although I agree unions have the WRONG POWER in the WRONG PLACES we should be working to reform the unions to become more fair as opposed to destroying them outright by eliminating their ability to function.

Republicans have always wanted to go too far one direction, democrats too far the other. With a super majority in this state walker might walk us right back into the 1920's with a debt equal to that of the 1940's FDR government. Every republican gov. this state has had has always railroaded us further into debt with a series of mostly unworkable state obligations to various individuals and companies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thymeclock View Post
What's driving the Left apopleptic is that the governor has enough political support to get legislation passed. Walker is their convenient target, the scapegoat. But the dirty little secret is that there is probably bipartisan support in the legislature.
I prefer Metrompgs unicorn fantasy better. There is a majority all the way through he doesn't need any bipartisan support.
 
Old 02-28-2011, 09:59 PM   #109 (permalink)
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we should be working to reform the unions to become more fair
Speaking as a past and present Union member, sadly you can't. I've been there and tried . I have been a member of 4 different unions in my various careers, including one of which was the anautoworkers , and one that was a public service union.

Both are mired in politicing and good old boys networks that freeze out people trying for true change and a sense of fairness. It's just like politics but even worse.

When your members are shouted down because your union leadership wants to waste the union members funds on "hospitality suites"; and don't want to end their entitlements, you know you're screwed.

It got so bad in the public servide union that a core group of workers in one indistry formed an "association" inside the union itself which forced it to address their concerns.

This "association" wanted real change and accountability and managed to get a modicum of it because the larger union was afraid of the ruckus it would cause if they petitioned the government to allow them to decertify out of the public union, and join\start another.
 
Old 02-28-2011, 11:22 PM   #110 (permalink)
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lets face it, I wasn't even trying to hide my bias, this thread was to vent frustration, over what I view as being a very terrible, unfortunate and hopeless situation.
I respect your honesty. But there are two sides to every political battle, and that is what this is. Just as you see this as "a very terrible, unfortunate and hopeless situation" the opposition sees it as a way to rectify a longstanding, overdue problem (which they would describe as entrenched corruption, greed, government collusion with unions, overpayment and bloat). They now hold the political advantage, and your "side" has not seen the total loss of that in so long that it is unpalatable to them.

Quote:
That doesn't explain why a large number all of a sudden do not support his latest tactics.
That is the best spin that the opposition of the Left can manage to promote; in fact that is the only point on which they can focus upon which approaches "overreaching". Eventually you may realize that this is how all politics and negotiation works: When you have the advantage of a position of strength you demand more than you know you can get and then you compromise, accordingly. Therefore, when you have political momentum behind you, you strive to get more than you thought was attainable, hoping to get lucky and get the whole enchilada. This is the nature of ALL politics. Those who do not play the game effectively lose.

Unions used to understand how to negotiate in this manner. If they forgot how, due to their automatically getting whatever they wanted for decades without much effort, it shows how fat, bloated and incompetent they have become.

Quote:
Yes, its too bad independents couldn't win, sadly the system more or less prevents that possibility 47 times out of 48. A more euro voting method would allow greater numbers of parties. That view is wrong though, because obviously there are only liberals who are liberal on every regard or conservatives who are conservative on every regard.
You voice the view that more choice of political parties is "wrong". All that tells us is that you are afraid that more voters will utilize those choices and make for a more unpredictable future. Fortunately for your view, America is essentially a two party system. Big business and mobsters both love it: there are only two sides on which anyone can bet - and they usually fund both parties, calling in their favors of political capital after the election, no matter which side is elected.

Quote:
My side hasn't yet won more than a couple elections though over a period of decades and I'm not sure they are really left in every way.
You identify yourself with a "side". Yours is obviously that of the Left, since you advocate a two party system and nothing else. What will happen when you realize that the political party you have been loyally supporting is no longer acting in your best interests?

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The people that most belong in politics would never run.
No, all politicians aspire to run because they seek power. Those of us who eschew wielding power have no interest in becoming politicians.

“In order to become the master, the politician poses as the servant.” - Charles de Gaulle

 
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