Tesla Model 3

[RedDevil]

The Bolt is a pretty decent car with lots of clever stuff. I wish it was recognized better for its virtues.
But I'd still prefer any Tesla over it.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

I still don't see how this helps the Leaf. I see nothing that a Leaf does better than a Model 3, except maybe at price point. But even that is wearing thin.

Bear with me, I do not want to play down any EV. But there's no getting around Tesla putting extraordinarily competitive cars in the market.
It does not make the Leaf bad. I'd rather have a Leaf than any comparable ICEr.
But if I could get a Tesla instead for not too big a premium - well...

The problem is that you cannot get a base Tesla today. You can put down a deposit and get in line but you can't go to the Tesla dealer and drive home a car.

Today I can go to Nissan dealer and bring home a Leaf for $20,000 after tax credits.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

The Bolt is a pretty decent car with lots of clever stuff. I wish it was recognized better for its virtues.
But I'd still prefer any Tesla over it.

Chevy planned their production volume to be relatively low, and therefore had little motivation to advertise it. Those looking for an EV probably took the initiative to find out what models were out there on their own, so advertising is even less needed.

Then Chevy's profit margins are slim to none on the Bolt. They don't really want to sell them if it loses a sale of their other offerings.

I thought the Bolt was fantastic when I test drove it for about 40 min. Then again, I've never been in a Tesla, so I might find that to be even more fantastic. My preference probably is with Tesla, but not at those prices. Hopefully used ones are reasonably priced someday.

[samwichse]

I would love a Bolt. Or a Tesla. Any decent-ranged, practical EV. I'd rather have a hatchback like the Bolt. But Tesla's are damned nice looking cars and there will be a lot more of them in the used market in 3 years. So...

[freebeard]

I would love a Bolt. Or a Tesla. Any decent-ranged, practical EV.

My VW mechanic delivered my car back from some tune-up work ('road testing' ) and he rolled up leaning out of the driver's window saying "I MISS MY BUG!". While I was driving him back to the shop, he admitted that the Arcimoto FUV stands to be a morre kick-*ss ride than the SUPERBeetle.

Arcimoto have a new box van version that kills the aerodynamics, but could be a base for a pop-open camper.

[roflwaffle]

Originally Posted by JSH

A long way to go for what? You seem to have a goal for cars to switch from ICE to EVs. Car manufacturers have a goal of making money.

Tesla is pushing their prices up, not down. They just raised prices on the Model Y by $1000 and the rest of their models will get a 3% price increase April 1st.

I'd like for the world to switch from ICEs to EVs overall. Profits are great, but they aren't everything. Amazon's done fairly well with little profit.

Tesla is pushing prices down overall, although I think Elon was a bit too ambitious with his plan to close all their retail stores. For comparison, a RWD LR 3 started at $51,200 with the delivery fee last year, and now runs $45,700.

I look forward to Tesla increasing production and further reducing costs.

[Xist]

I feel like electric cars are hobbies for rich people.

If something happened to my Accord before I got my Civic back on the road I would probably try to find the most reliable $1,500 beater that I could. Many things would need to change before I could put together the $6,000 that I paid for my Subaru.

How many people are in my situation?

Let's go along with the argument "You can't afford not to!"

Good news everyone! I finally found an electric vehicle with a 228-mile range for $6,000!

It is a bicycle and they averaged 13.5 MPH for 17 hours. https://electrek.co/2018/08/22/delfa...ll-production/

The writer estimated 85 - 100 miles at 25 MPH.

Looking in the Phoenix area, I found:
$4,000 for a 2013 Leaf with 92,000, six bars, and a lien:
https://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/c...832147566.html
$6,998 (plus tax?) for a 2011 Leaf with 69,000 miles and a new hybrid battery: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...place_pill_tab
$6,800 for a 2012 with 58,000 miles and a new battery: https://offerup.com/item/detail/652170125/
Emissions are good: https://offerup.com/item/detail/625513051/

So, for $7,000, I could have a basically new six or eight year-old car--which would seem quite new to me. I would need to finance, which would be a pain for a private party sale. I read that banks charge more interest, if I can even get approved for a loan, because being able to have a mechanic inspect it means it is riskier.

Wait.

Let's say that I put down $1,500, finance $5,500 at 8% (is that realistic? I do not have any idea) for 36 months. I pay $172 monthly towards the loan, $45 monthly for electricity, and charge over two hundred times a year. After three years and $7,812 I have a paid-off car with a degraded battery. After five years the possibly aftermarket battery will have as many miles as when it was originally replaced.

Let's say that I charge three hundred times a year, but still pay $540 annually for 15,000 miles. $8,892 plus a set of tires for five years and 75,000 miles, $1,778.40 annually, $148.20 monthly, and 12¢ per mile.

I do not understand the argument that electric cars are more convenient because you do not spend all of that time at gas stations. Seven minutes every week or two? I insert the nozzle, clean my windshield and back window, and put the nozzle back.

Anyway, my Accord is twenty years old and goes 550 miles every single tank, using an average of 16.6 gallons. Right now a tank costs $45.15.

Dang.

So, $102.61 monthly for gas, plus oil changes, and other ICE-related maintenance.

Mr. Money Mustache explains the convoluted way he bought a new Leaf for about $16,000: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ho...000-2016-11-02

Fun fact: "Over half of Colorado's electricity comes from coal-fired power plants." https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=CO

Source for $540 for 15,000 miles: https://pluginamerica.org/how-much-d...-electric-car/

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Xist

I feel like electric cars are hobbies for rich people.

If something happened to my Accord before I got my Civic back on the road I would probably try to find the most reliable $1,500 beater that I could. Many things would need to change before I could put together the $6,000 that I paid for my Subaru.

How many people are in my situation?

Let's go along with the argument "You can't afford not to!"

Looking in the Phoenix area, I found:
$4,000 for a 2013 Leaf with 92,000, six bars, and a lien:
https://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/c...832147566.html
$6,998 (plus tax?) for a 2011 Leaf with 69,000 miles and a new hybrid battery: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...place_pill_tab
$6,800 for a 2012 with 58,000 miles and a new battery: https://offerup.com/item/detail/652170125/
Emissions are good: https://offerup.com/item/detail/625513051/

So, for $7,000, I could have a basically new six or eight year-old car--which would seem quite new to me. I would need to finance, which would be a pain for a private party sale. I read that banks charge more interest, if I can even get approved for a loan, because being able to have a mechanic inspect it means it is riskier.

Wait.

Let's say that I put down $1,500, finance $5,500 at 8% (is that realistic? I do not have any idea) for 36 months. I pay $172 monthly towards the loan, $45 monthly for electricity, and charge over two hundred times a year. After three years and $7,812 I have a paid-off car with a degraded battery. After five years the possibly aftermarket battery will have as many miles as when it was originally replaced.

Let's say that I charge three hundred times a year, but still pay $540 annually for 15,000 miles. $8,892 plus a set of tires for five years and 75,000 miles, $1,778.40 annually, $148.20 monthly, and 12¢ per mile.

I do not understand the argument that electric cars are more convenient because you do not spend all of that time at gas stations. Seven minutes every week or two? I insert the nozzle, clean my windshield and back window, and put the nozzle back.

Anyway, my Accord is twenty years old and goes 550 miles every single tank, using an average of 16.6 gallons. Right now a tank costs $45.15.

Dang.

So, $102.61 monthly for gas, plus oil changes, and other ICE-related maintenance.

Mr. Money Mustache explains the convoluted way he bought a new Leaf for about $16,000: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ho...000-2016-11-02

Fun fact: "Over half of Colorado's electricity comes from coal-fired power plants." https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=CO

Source for $540 for 15,000 miles: https://pluginamerica.org/how-much-d...-electric-car/

Probably most people are in your situation, and most people hold your view that EVs are hobbies for wealthy people. In fact, something like half of people say they couldn't come up with $2,000 if something happened, and that includes the ability to borrow the money. That's insane to me. I could work McDonalds and have $2k on reserve in a year. Most people make more than minimum wage, and yet have no reserve.

I didn't follow any of your math because your basic assumptions about most things were quite off. Used car loans aren't financed at much more than new cars. USAA (which you should have from being military) rates are 2.89% new and 3.59% used. Practically nothing. Index funds have a historic average much above that, so you're better off financing even if you can pay cash for the vehicle. Banks are dumb; people should not have bank accounts. Credit unions (such as USAA) have the best rates for both lending and saving, and better terms.

https://www.usaa.com/inet/wc/bank-lo...kredirect=true

At my electric rates, the cost per mile is 2-3 cents per mile. There's no gasoline vehicle that will do that well.

How is 7min every week at the pump more convenient than 5 seconds to unplug and 5 seconds to plug back in per day? That's 1 minute per week "filling up" compared to 7. Home filling is way more convenient than away filling.

A new battery in a Leaf should go at least a decade, not 3 years.

[Piotrsko]

Obviously an EV is not a financial cost benefit decision.

The reason the ranger is electric is my son said I could never get it to pass smog and back on the highway. I did but it was a $10 grand conversion.

Otoh, I trust the ranger mechanic, and I view used cars as before dash fire and after dash fire.

[freebeard]

Banks are dumb; people should not have bank accounts. Credit unions (such as USAA) have the best rates for both lending and saving, and better terms.

I have USAA for insurance and a local credit union for finance. I'll finance any shortfall in the price of an FUV, once I liquidate some assets.

The SUPERBeetle is running again, but the return spring in the clutch is broken. I can't afford to keep a gas car on the road. And I can't afford a Harley tricycle.