Yeah we all know its a scam

[gone-ot]

H2+½O2→H2O(liquid) <> ΔHf° = -285.8kJ/mol

H2+½O2→H2O(gas) <> ΔHf° = -241.8kJ/mol

...multiplied by 50% (at best) times efficiency of alternator (35%) means something like 1382kJ/mol are needed to dissociate water at the engine, that's less the 18% efficiency:

% = 100%*(P.out/P.in)
% = 100*(241.8kJ/mol / 1382kJ/mol) = 100%*(0.175) < 18%

[drrbc]

Originally Posted by Old Tele man

H2+½O2→H2O(liquid) <> ΔHf° = -285.8kJ/mol

H2+½O2→H2O(gas) <> ΔHf° = -241.8kJ/mol

...multiplied by 50% (at best) times efficiency of alternator (35%) means something like 1382kJ/mol are needed to dissociate water at the engine, that's less the 18% efficiency:

% = 100%*(P.out/P.in)
% = 100*(241.8kJ/mol / 1382kJ/mol) = 100%*(0.175) < 18%

Your facts look correct (tho I've not checked- I assume you did), and can give a person some insight into one of the many, many processes that occur in the internal combustion engine. I this case, though, they tend to be of limited utility in open systems such as the one as we have been discussing.

But I personally am proud to even be part of such discussions that inspire people to think, learn, teach, and participate with others. Good job!

[RustyLugNut]

Originally Posted by drrbc

You're saying
1. Beyond the scope of a DIY "tinkerer"
2. Yes, it works (and could give a 10-15% improvement), but only in a limited RPM band.
3. Every different vehicle would need its own "tune" even with a standard unit.

And is the very reason, plus the others p-hack brought up, that make this whole idea an ineffective, non-marketable device for those seriously thinking of a profit motive.

But that doesn't stop us ecomodders does it? I'll get one integrated into one of my personal vehicles and see where this goes.

[gone-ot]

FWIW--individual efficiencies of typical automotive alternator:

40% - engine, the power source
98% - belt, connecting alternator to engine
55% - alternator, at its best(*)

(*) alternators are most efficient at idle (~53% @ 1500 rpm) with efficiency falling semi-exponentially as speed increases (~42% @ 6000 rpm)--a 20% decline; but, current output increases with rpms. The reason? Takes about 40W just for the field current.

[drrbc]

Originally Posted by RustyLugNut

But that doesn't stop us ecomodders does it? I'll get one integrated into one of my personal vehicles and see where this goes.

No, and typically I'm first in line to void a warranty- so knock 'im down John!

And how about a build log to keep us in the loop?

[P-hack]

I think what is bugging me most dbrcc isn't my ego, but your presumption and the expectations you put on others. Combined with the general lack of understanding that the results vary greatly by car and even with a build log you may need to be able to make many other modifications that are specific to your vehicle, and might not have the stuff to tune it or validate the results. It may still be beyond the reach of many DIYers, which are some of the same reasons that make it hard to market accurately.

There are a lot of HHO sellers competing with each other and making lots of unfounded claims as a result, and I understand the appeal of using plain old water and baking soda to boost your mileage, but there are many practicalities to consider.

[drrbc]

Originally Posted by P-hack

I think what is bugging me most dbrcc isn't my ego, but your presumption and the expectations you put on others. Combined with the general lack of understanding that the results vary greatly by car and even with a build log you may need to be able to make many other modifications that are specific to your vehicle, and might not have the stuff to tune it or validate the results. It may still be beyond the reach of many DIYers, which are some of the same reasons that make it hard to market accurately.

There are a lot of HHO sellers competing with each other and making lots of unfounded claims as a result, and I understand the appeal of using plain old water and baking soda to boost your mileage, but there are many practicalities to consider.

P-hack,

Sorry my presumptions and expectations have caused you any discord, it wasn't intended.

I presume people visit these forum for the same reasons as I.

My reasons are simple- profit being the first. I don't want to spend anymore for gas than I gotta, and I'd like to make my vehicle last as long as possible as well.

Distraction being the second reason. Setting a goal and working it gives me a mental break. Accomplishing the goal is nice also, but not mandatory.

And if somehow, someway I decrease my carbon footprint AND save money I'll figure I've been twice blessed.

Learning is how I plan to accomplish these goals. The same as everyone else here. And I expect we're all DIY'ers (but there are a few I suspect could go Pro easily).

Now granted that I may not be particularly as bright as most in this forum, but it doesn't take much due diligence before you realize that this is not a "one size fits all", and "something for nothing" shoppe. And us noobs may be wet behind the ears, but we're NOT retarded.

My expectations of others is also the same as for myself. We'll learn what we can and try what we think is reasonably in our reach. We'll also probably screw up- repeatedly. But hopefully we don't get so discouraged we stop trying.

And I think it's assumed that in payment for the free knowledge given here that we will be obliged to teach when we can. That's also part of the process.

I also expect intellectual honesty and courtesy, as I'm sure you do as well.

The process is incremental, just like so many of our other endeavors. I don't think anyone expects to replicate bondo's Aerocap on day 1. But it might be a good project to take on over the next year. His and Phils efforts (and theirs based also on prior work) have made it more reasonable for others to try. And people are doing just that- some with more success than others.

What I hope for most all is that at some point of us will reach for that which is outside of our grasp. Great things can happen. New things, or those rarely tried or considered- like remapping a crappy drive-by-wire throttle on your own.

Wow.

It's the build logs that document these efforts, both the successes and failures. And with each attempt we will get closer to putting a new advance into the hands of others.

Admittedly, some of the new "ideas" will never pan out.

But we will never know which ones unless we try. And that's the point, all practicalities considered.

For those willing to step up and attack those really big mountains- I realize that I'm as useless as teets on a boar hog to them, but i'll help 'em however I can. I certainly won't stand in their way or ridicule them.

Don't worry about the snake-oil. it's always been there and always will be, besides any sitting judge will tell you that it's a God-given right to be as stupid as we want- just as long as we don't hurt anyone else.

In my experience, snake oil, at least for those who would partake, usually makes people feel better (probably a laxative effect). If it makes them drive slower as well? I'd call that a win-win, at least for them.

Finally, sorry about the length. The problem was with your initial sentence, which I hope I have explained fully to your (and everyone else that would question my motives) satisfaction.

So let me address your initial statement of your initial sentence: Are you SURE that's what is bugging you? You don't gotta answer, it's just that right before my Id stuck his thumb in his mouth and went to sleep I might have noticed that on some of the fixtures around here the veneer don't exactly match the wood underneath. Seriously- not hatin', just askin'.

[P-hack]

Originally Posted by drrbc

...
My reasons are simple- profit being the first. I don't want to spend anymore for gas than I gotta, and I'd like to make my vehicle last as long as possible as well.

See that is the thing, it is ok to read the forum for profit, but when you participate by trying to rally the troops to a cause you don't understand fully, then that isn't really participating. Peoples time is worth something to them as well, and the people participating want to have some idea that what is being experimented on will be useful to others. It isn't just about one persons profit, it is about building a useful knowledge resource. If everyone focused on their own profit and their participation consisted of demanding others to run whatever experiments they want, well it doesn't work that way. In the same vain if people participate without substantiating their claims, that is also just noise.

Originally Posted by drrbc

So let me address your initial statement of your initial sentence: Are you SURE that's what is bugging you? You don't gotta answer, it's just that right before my Id stuck his thumb in his mouth and went to sleep I might have noticed that on some of the fixtures around here the veneer don't exactly match the wood underneath. Seriously- not hatin', just askin'.

This is an open and free forum, I kinda understand that there are requirements for experimentation and claims that they need to be done openly such as a science, and profit is not an excuse for not substantiating claims (or making wild claims). If you think someone making a claim while doing something for profit in any way substantiates their claims, then I don't even know what else to say. Their body of work and data is the only thing that can.

[drrbc]

Originally Posted by P-hack

See that is the thing,...is the only thing that can.

I get it. You didn't bother to read anything, think at all, or contribute.

Sad.

But here's the deal. The primary motivation for all humans is to do what they think is best for themselves at the time- IOW it's all a profit motive.

Which makes your attempts at misdirection completely disingenuous then, or your reply is the worst example of laziness and sloth.

Either way, it is very definition of intellectual dishonesty. I hope it strokes your ego well and doesn't come back to bite you to it's full potential.

[P-hack]

So, your contribution then is half baked psychology, terrific.