Yeah we all know its a scam

[P-hack]

There is no war against HHO, just a whole lot of sloppyness and bullcrap under the guise of profit. Do you even science? Or do you just tell others to? There are millions of hucksters claiming from %15-%300 mpg increase with these things, your "war" is with them.

[P-hack]

Oh, and flat wheel covers do help (depending on speed), so WTF is your issue w/them anyway? Nobody is saying they got %300 mpg improvement from them because something about HHO makes people stupid. (and they are like zero maintenance)

[ChazInMT]

Yeah, wassup drrbc?? I been reading your stuff the last few days and yer the only person I've known yet that seems to have a handle on the physics of combustion with your talk of hydrogen diffusivity and flame velocities. It is the only thing that keeps me from just shreading the daylights out of people who claim HHO works cause I myself don't understand the variables of combustion and why or why not the minuscule amounts of hydrogen added work of not......I firmly believe the extra energy required to produce the HHO cannot be made up by a great gain in combustion efficiency. And if we look at it in terms of atoms in and atoms out, (Not molecules...atoms) we're really just dealing with gross quantities of N, O, H & C, then the simple laws of perpetual motion make HHO beyond preposterous in it's claim. As in, we can't pick ourselves up by our own shoelaces and fly around the room, we can't put a generator on the wheels to make electricity to power a motor to make us go, etc. We can't generate hydrogen from water, using electricity from the engines alternator, then burn the hydrogen in the engine to make power to generate hydrogen to burn in the engine to make power to generate hydrogen.

So, if you have solid claims that say the "Catalytic" effect of the trace hydrogen added by HHO schemes will create significant amounts of efficiency such that it makes up for the energy spent to generate the gas to begin with and then some, I'd love to hear it. Or if you have claims that show there's no frickin way the tiny amounts of H can make it that much better, I'd love to hear that too.

[drrbc]

Originally Posted by P-hack

There is no war against HHO, just a whole lot of sloppyness and bullcrap under the guise of profit. Do you even science? Or do you just tell others to? There are millions of hucksters claiming from %15-%300 mpg increase with these things, your "war" is with them.

Y'know, I've learned some of the brightest people have the most tender of egos. That or maybe they have no tolerance for the vulgar (which I supposed they see simply as a hindrance). Either way, if you're not careful you miss a big opportunity.

But a profit motive shouldn't be the origin of decency, and I hope that which would make us Gentlemen isn't limited to acts of congress. Respect, good manners, and cooperation can help "grease the wheels" in the processes of learning and discovery.

I realize "there is no war against HHO". But there is a pervasive belief that those who would show interest in this area are crazies. The discussions are almost always destroyed by those that use this prejudice to build up their own egos, and I, for one, am tired of seeing that happen. I'm hoping ecomodder is a place where I find others that think similarly.

Now, to answer you questions: I guess I do, but I don't really know. Every day, no matter how hard I try, the world seems to grow on without me and I seem to get more and more lost. Look for me, I'm the one using an oil lantern while everyone else is using the flashlight on their iPhone.

Does that answer your question?

[drrbc]

Originally Posted by P-hack

Oh, and flat wheel covers do help (depending on speed), so WTF is your issue w/them anyway? Nobody is saying they got %300 mpg improvement from them because something about HHO makes people stupid. (and they are like zero maintenance)

Sorry. I was using the Pizza Pan thing to demonstrate how crazy some other claims "sound".

I personally love the PP idea and plan on trying it within the next few months.

[Frank Lee]

Hydrogen has been proven in the lab, under specific and strict circumstances, to aid in ultra lean combustion. To date, the lab is as far as that has gotten.

The online Master Debaters can have at it. I know that there is not and has not been even one HHO system on the face of the Earth that has been proven successful. That is where the rubber hits the road, guys. If you know how to build it and make it work, then do so.

[drrbc]

Originally Posted by ChazInMT

Yeah, wassup drrbc?? I been reading your stuff the last few days and yer the only person I've known yet that seems to have a handle on the physics of combustion with your talk of hydrogen diffusivity and flame velocities. It is the only thing that keeps me from just shreading the daylights out of people who claim HHO works cause I myself don't understand the variables of combustion and why or why not the minuscule amounts of hydrogen added work of not......I firmly believe the extra energy required to produce the HHO cannot be made up by a great gain in combustion efficiency. And if we look at it in terms of atoms in and atoms out, (Not molecules...atoms) we're really just dealing with gross quantities of N, O, H & C, then the simple laws of perpetual motion make HHO beyond preposterous in it's claim. As in, we can't pick ourselves up by our own shoelaces and fly around the room, we can't put a generator on the wheels to make electricity to power a motor to make us go, etc. We can't generate hydrogen from water, using electricity from the engines alternator, then burn the hydrogen in the engine to make power to generate hydrogen to burn in the engine to make power to generate hydrogen.

So, if you have solid claims that say the "Catalytic" effect of the trace hydrogen added by HHO schemes will create significant amounts of efficiency such that it makes up for the energy spent to generate the gas to begin with and then some, I'd love to hear it. Or if you have claims that show there's no frickin way the tiny amounts of H can make it that much better, I'd love to hear that too.

Chaz,

Truthfully, I have no idea what's going on. What I've been reading tells me that there is WAAAAAAAY more here than meets the eye. But I think where we're at is with the clay pot that has the iron and copper strips thats filled with OJ 2000 years ago. Here we are sitting around the table wondering what's going on and how to use it.

Remember, a catalyst doesn't change the number of reactions- it changes the time that they are done in. Again, an open system.

The electrolysis argument don't hold for the same reason- it's an open system.

As far as the different gases, I don't even want to try imagining all of the different possibilities. It makes my brain hurt.

Here is something I do know- Grab a nose plug, a straw, and a bottle of 70/30 heliox. Put the straw in your mouth. (you must inhale only thru the straw, but can exhale around it) Now try to run down the hallway and back.

Didn't make it, did you?

Now hook the straw up to the heliox and repeat.

Now how about that? Pretty neat, huh? And did ya feel just a little cooler as well?

One other thing I've learned- just as quick as you can say "can't", "won't", "impossible", or the like- somebody proves you wrong. IOW, I've learned to be quiet and just listen. It make it harder for them to prove just how stupid I really am.

But for now I'm just really amazed by this clay pot.

[drrbc]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

Hydrogen has been proven in the lab, under specific and strict circumstances, to aid in ultra lean combustion. To date, the lab is as far as that has gotten.

The online Master Debaters can have at it. I know that there is not and has not been even one HHO system on the face of the Earth that has been proven successful. That is where the rubber hits the road, guys. If you know how to build it and make it work, then do so.

Master Debaters!

I get it! Bwahahahaha!

Thanks for your insight Frank, very helpful! Come back soon!

[Frank Lee]

Any time!

[wickydude]

The problem with the hho scammers is the ridiculous claims they make.
Rusty, as you said, adding hydrogen can have an effect on the efficiency of the engine.
But just a few %.
It is just VERY difficult, if not impossible, to get a scientific study result.
The only one I ever found, and it is linked by the aardvark chap, is this one:
http://www.fisita.com/students/congr...apers/sc11.pdf
The scammers also like to point to such studies, as they like the conclusion, but they neglect the numbers.
Yes, it improved efficiency, but at 240l/h of hho for a small 1 cylinder diesel engine of a couple hp (6 or 7, i believe), at 1500rpm.
That's just not practically feasible. Translate that to an average 4cyl. diesel of around 120hp, you would need a ridiculous amount of hho.

On a diesel, you're better off with adding an lpg tank for the same effect. Prins autogas has such a system for big trucks.
They did not want to do this with a passenger diesel car, as they could not make it cost effective. I asked

But hey, if someone were to invent a system that actually works, gives 5% better economy without having to invest large amounts of money that you would never get back in fuel savings, I would be very interested.
I would still like to first get better proof than what I've seen so far...