Civic DX-VP, Insight, or ???

[Clev]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

True! A torqueless FE friendly gasser that would take 20 seconds to hit highway speeds! Which almost nobody would want to drive!

Sort of like my Firefly!

I don't have a problem with hybrids (I'd likely be modding a Prius if I had money to burn). The hybrid magic is they give you a midsize car with the efficiency of a small car. (Or a small car with the insane efficiency potential of a tiny car - Insight 1).

I just wish we could still buy the small car with the excellent small car efficiency.

/end of threadjack. Sorry Rick! That's all I'm saying on this subject.

Though not fancy, the original Insight IMA is probably the best-done hybrid system. The motor/generator is integrated into the flywheel, so it adds no overall weight to the system, and while I couldn't get the number on the old IMA battery/controller, the new one is only 45 pounds. So for almost no weight penalty and very little cost, you get FE benefits (auto stop/start, regen and boost) that you can't get out of a straight gasser. Plus, it works with manual, automatic or CVT trannies and existing engines and gives benefits in in-town driving for pretty much any vehicle without eating into highway mileage.

[theunchosen]

The original insight is the only hybrid I have considered. Just because its. . .in my opinion really not a hybrid lol. Its a gasser with specialty start stop ^_^. Ok its a hybrid, but only a little.

I don't think I said it on this thread. . .but a substantial part of the reason overseas cars get much better FE is just that, the fuel economy. EPA restrictions are far more strenuous in the US than they are abroad. This applies not only to our cars, but our fuel. If you import Euro gas you can squeak out 10-20% more power or FE depending on if your engine can interpret the difference in the fuels and has the ability to exploit it.

the contropositive a euro car on non euro fuel does in fact get worse FE. Supercars typically you can find 2 power ratings. 1 is the euro running on their substantially more pollutant laden as well as power laden fuel and the other is running on the fat free American variety.

The next step you've got to look at is EPA for the car itself. Some things don't hurt the FE or HP, while others do.

Safety features add weight. . .so on and so forth.

Estimates for the nano coming to the US the price goes up several fold and the weight goes up almost half a ton.

Back on topic, I bet the Fit could definitely do 40 if you forced the wifey to learn stick. If thats not an option I still think you could get 40 out of it. Just mak sure you have all the activation codes for the radio and everything unplug the battery and let it sit. Then eco-drive it for the first few days and the ECU should have reprogrammed its adaptations to be slightly more eco-friendly opposed to whatever the people doing the test-drives did.

[MetroMPG]

Rick! Smart fortwo!

Average User MPG: 41.2
Number of Vehicles: 5
Range: 36 - 54 MPG
Updated On: 05/26/2009

Source: Your MPG Estimates

Originally Posted by RH77

4-doors/5-passenger

Doh!

[rkcarguy]

I've grown disgusted with newer..heavier...more standard power crap that's gonna break in 5 years..poorer economy and performance than the lighter honda's of the 90's. My 93 Sedan is off being painted now, new carpet, mint integra seats, sway bars and new exhasut await it's return. It already has a engine swap in it but I'm still enjoying 30-34mpg average thanks to the teggy LS tranny.
I think we are headed for some new advancement and drastic improvements in the next few years. I'd wait on buying anything new because I expect the new cars of today to be obsolete in a few years. No sense paying $20K plus for something that will save you $1000 a year in gas but only get 1/2 the mpg of the soon to come cars...

[Clev]

Originally Posted by rkcarguy

I've grown disgusted with newer..heavier...more standard power crap that's gonna break in 5 years..poorer economy and performance than the lighter honda's of the 90's. My 93 Sedan is off being painted now, new carpet, mint integra seats, sway bars and new exhasut await it's return. It already has a engine swap in it but I'm still enjoying 30-34mpg average thanks to the teggy LS tranny.
I think we are headed for some new advancement and drastic improvements in the next few years. I'd wait on buying anything new because I expect the new cars of today to be obsolete in a few years. No sense paying $20K plus for something that will save you $1000 a year in gas but only get 1/2 the mpg of the soon to come cars...

Depends on how you look. The current year Honda Civic is bigger in nearly every interior dimension than my '90 Accord. It has more safety and convenience features, is faster and gets far better gas mileage than my Accord and, adjusted for inflation, is about $6,000 cheaper. I don't see any reason why it shouldn't last just as long as my Accord (probably longer, since Honda's had 19 years to perfect it.)

[Clev]

BTW, I agree; you'd have to be crazy to buy a car right now. There are a lot of promising vehicles coming in the next 18 months.

[MetroMPG]

But that will always be true: and 18 months after they arrive, there will be better vehicles in the pipe after that. Incremental improvement (and planned obsolescence) is the hallmark of automotive marketing.

[Clev]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

But that will always be true: and 18 months after they arrive, there will be better vehicles in the pipe after that. Incremental improvement (and planned obsolescence) is the hallmark of automotive marketing.

I mean specifically in the FE department. We've seen the original Metro discontinued in favor of the inferior Aveo, the original Insight discontinued and a slow decline in FE for pretty much everything else. Other than the 2G Prius in 2004, we've gone backwards.

FE seems to be back on the radar of the automakers, at least for a while, so I think we're more likely to see something in the next 18 months besides yet another SUV or "power hybrid."

[theunchosen]

Disagree.

Manufacturers just have to get outside the 20s for mpg and they are in the clear. Most cars out there on average get from 23-25 mpg. So a 10mpg improvement to 35 highway is enough to get most buyers hook line and sinker.

Its much easier to market safety as a reason their car is superior to someone else's than it is to market FE. Honestly, if two manufacturers only key quality between why buy our car over their car is FE and its the same. . .then its a true toss up which car they buy.

Seriously I have argued which car for people to buy for months with other people and pointing out it gets 5 mpg better stock is not anything of a critical point. That discussion lasts literally seconds and then its back to looks, acceleration, interior styling, longevity. . .so on. Why would auto manufacturers spend ANY time on FE when most people only consider it if you have 2 civics perfectly identical and one gets better economy. Thats how it is for most people. Arguing they are actually even thinking about FE at all is off base.

If they were, the chassis would be aluminum, the engine, trans everything would be aluminum it would have a liter(ish) volume, it would seat 4 very uncomfortably it would not have any safety features other than frontal airbags and seat belts, it would not have any hybrid features and it would weigh 1600 lbs and get 70 mpg stock.

There are obviously none of those cars out there so obviously the manufacturers aren't interested.

Cars will get somewhat better FE in the future but not markedly.

Moral. . .if you like one get it. If you don't like it don't get it.

Second moral. . .if you negotiate the dealer down to 12K for a Fit auto. . .the only time you're going to get something new cheaper thats better on FE might be if you get a Kia and thats because you can start off at 10K and negotiate down lol.

Its about as cheap as its going to get and FE is not going to get alarmingly better in the next 18 months. . .besides if you negotiate down to 12K you aren't going to find any of those for that. They are NEW models and won't budge down off the sticker. Trust me I had lots of dealer friends when I worked in collections. First year models don't go below sticker unless the dealer is desparate.

[PaleMelanesian]

Fit Fe - CleanMPG Forums

He's grown tired of P&G, so by setting the cruise control at 55, he's getting 48 mpg in a fit.