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Old 05-29-2009, 10:30 AM   #21 (permalink)
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For mileage, remember that both the new Insight and new Prius have an "eco" button, that was NOT used for the EPA tests. Push that button and a normal driver gets an automatic improvement in mileage.

The cruise control on the Insight is a smart unit, that has some FE programming built in to it. Delayed and reduced throttle reaction to hills, allowing more speed variation before doing anything, and some other stuff I don't remember.

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Old 05-29-2009, 11:38 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Even higher during the competition challenges. He's gotten almost 75 MPG out of it.
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Old 05-29-2009, 05:17 PM   #23 (permalink)
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You're really playing on my horsepowerly emotional roots...

Yep, the Teg automatic will chirp the tires and handle like crazy -- revving to the 6850 RPM limit is a great feeling (and sound) from time-to-time.

But I did plant the ol' foot on the Prius during my 3 rentals. Every car I rent then review, gets as full of a test as possible: full-throttle accel, finding handling dynamics and grip, suspension response in a quick S-curve (parking lots generally) and overall power response (in additinon to everyday driving and Eco-Potential).

The Prius was tested in LA, Portland, and Portland-Yakima-Portland. During the first rental, I took it easy to get a high number. On the second time, I climbed the mountainous terrain and found some twisty roads to test the "Sport" aspect. The 3rd was in LA and I had to keep up with traffic. All with good FE and...

Surprisingly, power off the line is great with the electric motor + gas engine, and the CVT offers high revs and power when you need it. It feels tossable and light in the corners. A bit of body roll was there, but still planted.

No doubt the Fit will be the most sporty option. The problem is, my FE goal is to get considerably-better FE with each car purchase (until the curve flattens or, if technology allows, continue the trend). The Fit can't do that out of the box. The 75 MPG example is an outlier, I'm afraid. I just don't possess that kind of mad skillz.

I might still end up with one -- I still have to drive it to see if I like it or not. If I had to decide today, it's still the Toyota. If I have a need for speed, I'll borrow my Wife's car (or rent Mustang).

Good discussion so far. It's a big decision we all have to make, and the expert opinions here definitely help

RH77

Quote:
Originally Posted by theunchosen View Post
The thing about a Prius. . .for most people. . .

Is it won't go quickly if you ask it to. If I stomp My Del Sol to the floor it will go, screech the tires and the front end will bounce a little.

Driving even on ecomod is not ALWAYS about FE. Maybe it is for you guys but on occassions I love to go out and roll through the mountains with the gas mashed to the floor. I'll still get above 26 mpg doing this. . .while the prius if it does that gets sub 20. On the other hand I can crank 36-37 with light steady-state driving, with a few upcoming projects 54 might well be within range. . .

RH you could get a used Fit with AC. I'm sure there are some of those around somewhere(not from a dealer). If you could find a lightly used Fit from another consumer I'm sure you could pull them out for 12. The Fit gets alright gas mileage in stock state with moderately heavy driving, with light driving steady state, some cheap aero boosts, what reductions can be had, and maybe wheel skirts you can probably beat the Integ. . .
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Old 05-29-2009, 05:21 PM   #24 (permalink)
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As far as tossability goes, Wayne at CleanMPG noted that the Insight was much better than the old Prius, and slightly better than the new prius. That makes sense, with it being somewhat derived from the Fit.
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Old 05-29-2009, 06:00 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RH77 View Post
No doubt the Fit will be the most sporty option. The problem is, my FE goal is to get considerably-better FE with each car purchase (until the curve flattens or, if technology allows, continue the trend). The Fit can't do that out of the box.
That's the thing, isn't it: An automatic Fit simply will not give you your 40 mpg average (esp. year round) with just "mild ecodriving" techniques. The only Honda that will is an old VX/HX/HF or maybe CX (none are options, as stated) or a newer hybrid. You want FE in a Honda, you get a hybrid - they have you just where they want you! (Now the question is whether you will accept their proposition, or go dance with someone else.)

Quote:
The 75 MPG example is an outlier, I'm afraid. I just don't possess that kind of mad skillz.
Or the desire to travel at an average speed of ... I don't even want to guess. Eye popping numbers are fun to produce, but they almost always = pulse & glide at a relatively low average speed + the entire bag of other tricks. Again, not exactly "mild eco-driving"!

(PS: not dissing the Fit driver - that style & speed may fit nicely into his regular usage.)

I do like how you set the fuel economy bar higher for each replacement vehicle, though. Wish more people would do that.
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Old 05-29-2009, 06:31 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I don't know what your wife's car is but the Fit has a highway of 35, city of 28 and combined of 33.

With light eco-driving(low speed low accel, low AC loading, max tires pressure, maybe weight reductions) I would surmise you could pop 35 avg instead of 33 pretty easily. If you wanted to really go aero on it I suspect you could do a good bit better and the 35 already puts you 10 mpg ahead of your teg. Its pretty mpg friendly.

Its not an econo-box. . .but its very inexpensive(for 4 doors) and gets reasonable gas mileage(for 4 doors).

I just hate hybrids for the electrical involvement because it is so difficult to be certain that what you are tweaking does not influence something else down the line. Mechanical systems. . .well I can see what its touching and I can see what it does. Its alot harder to crack the ecu case plug up a laptop and then start taking shots at what the processor core is doing.
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Old 05-29-2009, 06:43 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theunchosen View Post
Its not an econo-box. . .but its very inexpensive(for 4 doors) and gets reasonable gas mileage(for 4 doors).
But not 40 mpg. Rick wants 40.

Disclosure: I'll admit I don't like the Fit. Not because it isn't an attractive, versatile vehicle that likely out-handles the competition too. But it bugs me that Honda doesn't offer high MPG vehicles outside their hybrid range any more, and I'm taking it out on the Fit because I had high hopes for it, and Honda disappointed me (and many others). In other markets, with different trans/engine options, it can be pretty efficient. In North America, we get only ridiculous gearing and the largest engine, so ... TA-DA! ... its efficiency is frankly disappointing. That's my stubborn opinion and I'm sticking to it.
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Old 05-29-2009, 06:49 PM   #28 (permalink)
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ITs not 40 and I don't blame you for taking it out on the Fit.

I hate that car companies think we only want high mileage on hybrids. The insight non hybrid build thread is probably one of the culminations of that pent up frustration.

I just would not ever own a hybrid. With a little technique virtually any hybrid could be converted into a more FE friendly gasser. Yank the bats from the Prius yank the e-motor yank all the expensive electronic systems and leave the ECU and the ICE and the longer gears in the trans. Inject some water into the engine and run the thing throttle less with lean burn without a CAT and just a muffler.
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Old 05-29-2009, 06:54 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroMPG View Post
But not 40 mpg. Rick wants 40.

Disclosure: I'll admit I don't like the Fit. Not because it isn't an attractive, versatile vehicle that likely out-handles the competition too. But it bugs me that Honda doesn't offer high MPG vehicles outside their hybrid range any more, and I'm taking it out on the Fit because I had high hopes for it, and Honda disappointed me (and many others). In other markets, with different trans/engine options, it can be pretty efficient. In North America, we get only ridiculous gearing and the largest engine, so ... TA-DA! ... its efficiency is frankly disappointing. That's my stubborn opinion and I'm sticking to it.
It's not rated 40, but I bet it'll do 40. My Ion is rated 32 mpg highway and despite my nightly climb home, I'm still kissing 40 mpg without any mods.

I do agree, and it's not just Honda. Toyota, VW, GM, Ford, all have high mileage cars sold everywhere but here. Maybe the difference is that Honda and Toyota have figured out how to make a hefty margin on fuel efficient vehicles instead of trucks--by restricting them to higher margin hybrids. With the cost of fuel in Europe, they'd be run out on a rail if they tried that crap over there.
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Old 05-29-2009, 07:12 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theunchosen View Post
With a little technique virtually any hybrid could be converted into a more FE friendly gasser.
True! A torqueless FE friendly gasser that would take 20 seconds to hit highway speeds! Which almost nobody would want to drive!

Sort of like my Firefly!

I don't have a problem with hybrids (think the Prius is one of the coolest cars I've ever driven, and I'd likely be modding one if I had money to burn). The hybrid magic is they give you a midsize car & power with the efficiency of a small car. (Or small car size & power with the insane efficiency potential of a tiny car - e.g. Insight 1).

I just wish we could still buy the small car with the excellent small car efficiency.

/end of threadjack. Sorry Rick! That's all I'm saying on this subject.

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