Paul's how NOT to convert a Metro

[vpoppv]

Ok, so I just went to the middle school where I work, so I know that my $7 batteries have enough ooomph to give me the range I need!!! Yeah!! Oh, and also I was right about the whole clutch thing: I can upshift, downshift, whatever I feel like, but I COULDN'T when it had the ICE in it; apparently, synchos are not needed for electric cars.....

[Christ]

Originally Posted by vpoppv

Ok, so I just went to the middle school where I work, so I know that my $7 batteries have enough ooomph to give me the range I need!!! Yeah!! Oh, and also I was right about the whole clutch thing: I can upshift, downshift, whatever I feel like, but I COULDN'T when it had the ICE in it; apparently, synchos are not needed for electric cars.....

Whoa, whoa, WHOA!

Minor correction here:

The synchronizers are still in use!

What you're actually seeing here is that they have alot less mass to accelerate/decelerate.

Weigh the entire rotating assembly, including the clutch/flywheel/pressure plate of the engine (which also produces an opposing force, mind you), versus the armature inside the e-motor. Oh yeah, the synchros can accelerate that little bit of mass with nearly no frictional losses and almost no lever distance very easily.

Basically, try to spin the OEM motor over with your thumb and forefinger on the crank snout. Now do it with an E-motor. Now, you see why you "don't need those synchronizers", right?

[vpoppv]

Originally Posted by Christ

Whoa, whoa, WHOA!

Minor correction here:

The synchronizers are still in use!

What you're actually seeing here is that they have alot less mass to accelerate/decelerate.

Weigh the entire rotating assembly, including the clutch/flywheel/pressure plate of the engine (which also produces an opposing force, mind you), versus the armature inside the e-motor. Oh yeah, the synchros can accelerate that little bit of mass with nearly no frictional losses and almost no lever distance very easily.

Basically, try to spin the OEM motor over with your thumb and forefinger on the crank snout. Now do it with an E-motor. Now, you see why you "don't need those synchronizers", right?

So, what you're saying is that they can now be used in an electric because they have an easier task with the electric motor? So then, although they no longer worked in the car with an ICE engine, I am able to now use them again? I just figured that either they worked or they didn't, I didn't think there could be an in-between. Although, I guess it really isn't an in-between: they now work again. Hmmmmm. I'll need to sleep on that one, I don't get it yet.

[Christ]

I based that on the idea that you were getting grinding while trying to "clutchless shift" with the ICE still installed.

If this is not the case, I'm incorrect in the above.

Did you change the transaxle fluid?

[vpoppv]

Originally Posted by Christ

I based that on the idea that you were getting grinding while trying to "clutchless shift" with the ICE still installed.

If this is not the case, I'm incorrect in the above.

Did you change the transaxle fluid?

I changed the fluid just a few thousand ICE miles ago with Amsoil Synchromesh so I didn't think it needed to be changed again. The transmission wouldn't grind before with the ICE, it just refused to get in gear. Slides right in now!

[Christ]

Did you adjust/inspect/generally play with the clutch or mechanism?

If not, I stand by my previous statement. The reason it wouldn't go into gear is because the synchronizers were working with the ICE. They're a buffer to prevent grinding, and they won't allow gear changes with severely unmatched speeds.

What I would guess was happening is the same thing that happened in my first Civic after putting the Stage 4 solid ceramic 3 puck clutch in - I couldn't get into first gear without shutting down the engine. I ended up having to pull the entire clutch assembly back out and shim the release bearing, as I couldn't get enough adjustment in the mechanism to actually release the clutch fully.

Before I ended up pulling the transmission and shimming the release bearing, I would start off by half-dumping in 2nd gear, then clutching, reverting to first gear while holding around 2k RPM, and then dumping the clutch again. It was basically the only way I could move the car without bogging, since solid clutches are just that - they're either engaged or not, there isn't really a middle ground.

[vpoppv]

[QUOTE=Christ;134620]Did you adjust/inspect/generally play with the clutch or mechanism?

If not, I stand by my previous statement. The reason it wouldn't go into gear is because the synchronizers were working with the ICE. They're a buffer to prevent grinding, and they won't allow gear changes with severely unmatched speeds.QUOTE]

The clutch mechanism is untouched. I'm like Sgt. Schultz
"I know nuTING". I'm just regurgitating what I read about in the Geo Metro forums I lurk in. They all say the same thing: Geos have weak synchros, and when they wear out, you can't get it in gear. 4 out of 5 of my Geos has this problem, in varying degrees. This one was by far the worst. And one thing that would make me think that they do, in fact, wear out to the point that they exhibit this behavior is that several members have rebuilt their transmissions and the problem went away. And also, the synchronizers show some serious wear. Here's a good link (warning! not for the bandwidth challenged!)

Fixing a Tranny Leak W/Pics - Automotive Forums .com Car Chat

Now, I'm not saying you're wrong, because, again, I really don't know my butt from my elbow, it's just that these other guys seems to know their Geos and I tend to think they have some insight I might lack. The bottom line is, I don't really care WHAT's going on in my transmission, I just like that I can shift again!!!

[Christ]

It's confusing to me, because in the sense that I'm familiar with, synchros, when "dead", will allow grinding in the gears, but won't stop you from getting to them eventually when the speeds match up.

I won't say anyone is wrong, because I don't have enough information to form anything other than a grossly uneducated opinion based on personal experience with only a mildly related subject... anything I say beyond what I've already (apparently incorrectly) added would only be conjecture, a joke at best.

[vpoppv]

Originally Posted by Christ

It's confusing to me, because in the sense that I'm familiar with, synchros, when "dead", will allow grinding in the gears, but won't stop you from getting to them eventually when the speeds match up.

Hey, I STILL don't understand how synchros work, no matter HOW many people explain them to me, or how many pictures I look at! I wouldn't be caught dead rebuilding a transmission! That's why I have two spares in my tool shed!
Well, the problem here is that electric conversions are still relatively uncommon. I had a feeling that my transmission would work OK again when I converted it to electric based on the experiences that some other converters had with their setups. An example of this is a gentleman who had a Saturn he converted was on the boards asking how to downshift from 3rd to 2nd. He described the exact same problem that I faced in my car with the ICE. And then I said to myself "AHA! that sounds familiar!". In the end, there really isn't a way to be sure of anything until you go out and do it! I'm just glad I didn't convince myself to stop my conversion for fear that I'd be unable to shift. I highly value your opinion, so please don't hold back comments you might have.
And now for something completely different:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3sX30NubTs

[Christ]

Originally Posted by vpoppv

Hey, I STILL don't understand how synchros work, no matter HOW many people explain them to me, or how many pictures I look at! I wouldn't be caught dead rebuilding a transmission! That's why I have two spares in my tool shed!
Well, the problem here is that electric conversions are still relatively uncommon. I had a feeling that my transmission would work OK again when I converted it to electric based on the experiences that some other converters had with their setups. An example of this is a gentleman who had a Saturn he converted was on the boards asking how to downshift from 3rd to 2nd. He described the exact same problem that I faced in my car with the ICE. And then I said to myself "AHA! that sounds familiar!". In the end, there really isn't a way to be sure of anything until you go out and do it! I'm just glad I didn't convince myself to stop my conversion for fear that I'd be unable to shift. I highly value your opinion, so please don't hold back comments you might have.
And now for something completely different:

I love that style of wheel on older muscle.

(Cute cats... )