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Old 09-15-2012, 03:45 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Old Mechanic View Post
The worst EPA city rating is for the 4.0 V6 auto and all wheel drive @14 city and 19 highway. Are you using E85?
Need more information.

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Mech
As far as I know, I am using E10. I'm also using Shell, which is "nitrogenated." I usually use 89 octane, but I think my next tank will be 87.

Thinking about making my own tester for Ethanol percentage, rather than spend $20 to $40 for a kit. I'll also be testing other gas brands over time. I'm collecting papers on the subject. Seems pretty straight forward.

I've also been reading in Nissan Frontier forums that a lot of others are having the same experience with very poor gas mileage. Some of that is lead foot coupled with a very kick-ass engine. But I also suspect that the the vehicle's O2 sensor and computer controls may not be calibrated for E10, and it is causing a very rich mixture.

I'm also thinking about setting up a "still" to remove the ethanol and then add in some acetone to compensate. I have some papers on experiments along that line also.

I would appreciate any technical data or sources you might have along those lines.

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Old 09-15-2012, 03:51 PM   #12 (permalink)
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a "still is out of my range of know how. but it sounds like an interesting idea. a "still" is just a single stage distillation column is in not? If you could dial in the right heat/ size still it might work.

How much % gain would you think you could get from this? Some 91 octane gas brands are E10 free and might be a good first step comparison.

"nitrogenated" is just marketing. no real difference from everything i have read.
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Old 09-15-2012, 04:04 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Welcome advice

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Originally Posted by Daox View Post
Welcome to the site.
[snip]
Honestly, don't waste your time. Its not worth it. Do some searching here and I'm sure you'll find some info on this.
Well, I'm not an eco-freak, so I won't be too much into "hyper-driving." but I have already taken the lead out of my foot.

I will be perusing the "proven mods" here for what might be useful.

I used to work for Brown Engineering under a NASA engineering support contract for the Saturn V Moon rocket. (That might have been before you were born.) A couple of things I learned from that experience that are applicable here:

1) All the formulas and mathematical models we have of the real world are but approximations. All have error -- there are no perfect formulas or models of the real world; and
2) There is no substitute for experimentation. Most scientific advances come from surprises occurring during experimentation on something else.

So I will be experimenting with a lot of things. There are right and wrong ways to do experiments.
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Old 09-15-2012, 04:17 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Weather Spotter View Post
a "still is out of my range of know how. but it sounds like an interesting idea. a "still" is just a single stage distillation column is in not? If you could dial in the right heat/ size still it might work.

How much % gain would you think you could get from this? Some 91 octane gas brands are E10 free and might be a good first step comparison.

"nitrogenated" is just marketing. no real difference from everything i have read.
No heat to the "still" -- from what I have read so far, it is just like a big ethanol tester -- a big jug (say 5 gallons). Pour in the fuel from the pump. Pour in some water. Shake it all up to cause phase separation. Let it set for the water-alcohol to settle to the bottom. Drain off the water-alcohol mix from the bottom. Put in something to replace the loss of octane (such as acetone). Put it in your gas tank. Drive away.

Part of the experiment would be to graph the percentage of additive(s) that resulted in the best gain. Rather than put it in my new truck, and maybe void the warranty, I'll be looking for a cheap test engine to test it first.

Or maybe I'll just put a plan and schematic together, and let someone else with a test vehicle actually do the testing.
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Old 09-15-2012, 04:50 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gealii View Post
rather removing ethanol see if there is an ethanol free gas station in your area
Find ethanol free gas near you!
lists most ethanol free stations

and like daox said read over the hypermiling tips and vehicle modifications.
Some people are against mods because they don't want to make their car look bad in the
eyes of others, but there are mods that are look oem or are invisible to normal day to days looks
I have done a search. There are reportedly still some ethanol-free stations in Texas, but none that I know of within a couple hundred miles of where I live (Austin). And I'm not going to drive a hundred miles or more just to fill my tank. Though I might have to do that once just to verify the ethanol - no ethanol factor. For testing and control purposes, the gasoline should be the same supplier and grade - and the only factor is the presence or absence of ethanol. If I use different suppliers, it introduces other variables, which may be significant.

From what others have commented on, I suspect the mileage problem (once I factor out the lead foot) is ethanol related. The vehicle may simply not be made with ethanol in mind. Anyway, I intend to test that suspicion myself. I read in other forums that others have done exactly that testing, with the conclusion that ethanol was the mileage culprit, and once it was eliminated, mileage improved drastically.

If I conclude that to be a fact, and ethanol-free gasoline is no longer reasonably available, then removing the ethanol will be the focus.

Of course, I'll also be complaining to the dealer, but from what others have said, that will be a certain dead end.
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Old 09-15-2012, 05:16 PM   #16 (permalink)
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well you sure seem to know how to design controlled tests! Is hard to do but unless you do it you cannot trust to data generated.

If you look through the wiki mods, most of the hard data is gotten by diligent ABA controlled tests. For mine I posted my data so that other can see and verify the results.
I love to experiment and I agree that its a great way to come up with ideas/ methods to improve MPG.

Will look forward to adding a section on removing ethanol to our wiki when we have data
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Old 09-15-2012, 08:51 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Sorry for asking questions, we get lots of people here who complain about gas mileage and have never considered anything other then an SUV. not that you cannot drive anything you want.

Also I am not an eco-freak, I like to mod my car but I am a gun loving, country guy just trying to save $$. being eco friendly is last on my list of concerns. Every one on here is different and has different motives (which we are all cool with) but blasting people who are trying to help will get you zero help. Tolerating others polite remarks (eco or not) is required, I do not like some peoples rants about carbon pollution.... but I can still politely listen to their suggestions for better MPG.

Adding adding acetone has been tried many times and I have yet to see any proven (give me hard data) to show it works. I tried it myself and could not determine any difference. it also runs the strong risk of breaking seals and gaskets.

As for E-10 I can not find any local stations that do not have a minimum of 10% Some states use MTBE as an knock additive but that leaches into and pollutes ground water making in unsafe to drink so most states banned it and the next cheapest solution was ethanol.

In your looking around have you seen our wiki of mod ideas? it might give you some modding ideas that have shown great results:
Car MPG Efficiency Modifications Main - EcoModder
OK, Sorry for the negative over-reacting. To compensate, I'll over-react positively now --

I drive a truck because I like to. I picked the Nissan Frontier, because the best vehicle I ever owned was a' 92 Nissan pickup SE-V6 4x4. I bought the 2012 Nissan Frontier because of my past excellent experience with Nissan.

I like the 2012 Frontier because in my eyes, it is the prettiest truck, bar none. And I chose a crew cab because it is sized just right for me, my wife and two daughters. I chose the long bed, because I think short-bed crew cabs look funny. I chose a 4x2 because a 4x4 wasn't available - otherwise I'd have a 4x4. But then I never really used the 4x4 much in the '92 model. And I chose the SL model because it has every dodad on it, and I deserve it.

I also have a SUV (2001 Mazda Tribute), and a motorcycle (1987 Honda Shadow VT700C). The SUV is getting along in years, and has a too close encounter with a deer. Mileage on it has also gone down with the introduction of E10. It is totally paid for, so maybe I'll use it to experiment on, although it still gets decent mileage (average 23 mpg in town.)

So there you have it - a mixture of logic, emotion, need, want, and not just a little temperament -- Just like all big ticket purchases for everyone.

About acetone -- I have a copy of a report, including data and a chart, that relates percent acetone added to mileage increase. The chart shows that acetone increases mileage up to a point and then decreases it. Maybe it is ineffective with the percentage of ethanol presently added to gasoline. In any event, if I remove the ethanol from the gasoline, I would also be lowering the octane rating. I will very likely need to add back a non-alcohol based octane booster. So acetone will be one possibility for that.

There is, of course, the possibility that the sensors on the vehicle that adjust fuel mixture are either defective, or not calibrated for ethanol, and are causing a too-rich mixture of gasoline to be injected. So maybe I would need some exhaust sensors for that. Should I mention the vehicle's computer that adjusts itself, perhaps masking all test results.

So I realize there are a lot of factors to control for, and that controlling them isn't always easy. In any event, because someone tried it before doesn't necessarily mean a proper test was made. Testing properly means strictly controlling for other factors, and proceeding in small increments. it can be boring, tedious, and expensive.
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Old 09-16-2012, 01:39 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorM View Post
Well, I'm not an eco-freak, so I won't be too much into "hyper-driving." but I have already taken the lead out of my foot.

I will be perusing the "proven mods" here for what might be useful.

I used to work for Brown Engineering under a NASA engineering support contract for the Saturn V Moon rocket. (That might have been before you were born.) A couple of things I learned from that experience that are applicable here:

1) All the formulas and mathematical models we have of the real world are but approximations. All have error -- there are no perfect formulas or models of the real world; and
2) There is no substitute for experimentation. Most scientific advances come from surprises occurring during experimentation on something else.

So I will be experimenting with a lot of things. There are right and wrong ways to do experiments.
I am a total eco freak. I love money. Economy freak all day long. All of my service in law enforcement is voluntary until a full time position is open, so my funds are through the private sector and internet based. Without decent economy, my Glocks, H&K, and 12 guages would never see any fun! Plus I couldn't save any money. 36 mpg and money saved for a FiveseveN, or epa estimate of 22? I'll go with the savings.

What is hyper driving? Is that like hyper miling? I know some stuff seems a bit extreme, of the hypermiling, but some of it is so simple that is easily overlooked. Even like tire pressure, or coasting more often and more carefully.

It seems like you are pretty set in testing technique. One great thing about the site is seeing others results. In the wiki, and even just browsing, one can see what others have done.
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Old 09-16-2012, 09:53 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorM View Post
Well, I'm not an eco-freak, so I won't be too much into "hyper-driving." but I have already taken the lead out of my foot.

I will be perusing the "proven mods" here for what might be useful.

I used to work for Brown Engineering under a NASA engineering support contract for the Saturn V Moon rocket. (That might have been before you were born.) A couple of things I learned from that experience that are applicable here:

1) All the formulas and mathematical models we have of the real world are but approximations. All have error -- there are no perfect formulas or models of the real world; and
2) There is no substitute for experimentation. Most scientific advances come from surprises occurring during experimentation on something else.

So I will be experimenting with a lot of things. There are right and wrong ways to do experiments.

I'm fully aware of the scientific method and proper testing. If you read a bit more here you'll find that is also what we endorse. I was simply trying to save you some time. If you wish to spend your time testing things that have never been found to actually work go right ahead.
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Old 09-16-2012, 10:47 AM   #20 (permalink)
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correct me if im wrong, dont the new cpu's that run the cars modify on the fly and learn your driving habits . also do you have a realtime fuel readout on the dash, if not a scangauge will help .It did for me now Im getting +3-4mpg with out thinking about it more if I work at it. And welcome to ecomodder. by the way It seams all the older cars and trucks got better mpg. lighter smaller engines fewer bell and whistles.

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