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Old 07-22-2018, 08:53 AM   #481 (permalink)
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Double standards are great.

Chevy: What did you expect, you bought a Chevy. It runs, so it's doing great.

Toyota: The name itself means legendary quality and reliability. That's not an uneven gap, you obviously need to get your eyes checked.

Tesla: I know it's a pile of actual, physical components, but it's a Tesla. Anything short of mythical perfection is a travesty to be ridiculed at length.

Honda: I know it's on fire, but it'll get me to work and back just fine for years to come.

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Manual neutral engine off.100% @MPG <----- Fun Fact.
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Old 07-22-2018, 11:10 AM   #482 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by RedDevil View Post
No. It is steel all right, but there convention stops.

edit:
Just look at the links Roflwaffle provided two posts down... Amazing, shocking!
A symphony of engineering indeed.
There is nothing in Roflwaffle's post that points to anything about the Tesla that makes it more difficult to build than a Bolt or Leaf. Yes, the performance is in a different league but it bolts together the same. I think the design is great (I would change some of the controls) and the performance is great. The product launch has been a failure.

What do you think is unique about the Model 3 that justifies the production problems that Tesla is seeing?
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Old 07-22-2018, 05:44 PM   #483 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH View Post
There is nothing in Roflwaffle's post that points to anything about the Tesla that makes it more difficult to build than a Bolt or Leaf. Yes, the performance is in a different league but it bolts together the same. I think the design is great (I would change some of the controls) and the performance is great. The product launch has been a failure.

What do you think is unique about the Model 3 that justifies the production problems that Tesla is seeing?
Now I don't get you. The links say nothing about performance nor design. They delve into construction, sophistication, efficiency and build cost.
Tesla makes its own parts (to have them significantly cheaper than 3rd party stuff), makes new cells that have a power to weight ratio unseen in other cars, extremely sophisticated electronics, etc.

In essence, Tesla had to steer away from conventional construction methods where it inhibits progress, something the run of the mill automakers have become blind for.
And of course, that causes hiccups. You don't get a 5 year lead over your rivals without a struggle.
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Old 07-23-2018, 12:16 PM   #484 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedDevil View Post
Now I don't get you. The links say nothing about performance nor design. They delve into construction, sophistication, efficiency and build cost.
Tesla makes its own parts (to have them significantly cheaper than 3rd party stuff), makes new cells that have a power to weight ratio unseen in other cars, extremely sophisticated electronics, etc.

In essence, Tesla had to steer away from conventional construction methods where it inhibits progress, something the run of the mill automakers have become blind for.
And of course, that causes hiccups. You don't get a 5 year lead over your rivals without a struggle.
The links roflwaffle provided deal with the battery and electronic controls. Those components are assembled in the Nevada gigafactory. The module is delivered to the assembly plant just like a part from any other supplier.
Consolidating the battery back and electronics controls into one module actually makes the assembly process easier not harder. So the links do nothing to explain why Tesla can't bolt together cars at the Fremont assembly plant without resorting to building a manual assembly line in the parking lot.

From roflwaffle's report (and my coworker's car) Tesla has raised the level of fit an finish to that of average economy car (like the Prius) that cost tens of thousands less than what Tesla is charging for a Model 3. They are not to the level of fit and finish that is expected in the luxury segment. A short time ago, Tesla was shipping cars to customers that simply should not have left the factory. When a company is willing to sell cars with visible defects it makes me wonder corners they are cutting on parts that the customer can't see.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news...-buyers/page-2

EDIT: What you don't seem to get is that I am focused on assembly process that takes place at the Fremont plant.

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Originally Posted by roflwaffle View Post
In terms of quality, my feeling is that people are focusing on it because certain media outlets are focusing on it. I never thought about or looked at panel gaps and the like until the stories about them were shotgunned all over the news cycle, and when I did look at them it turns out my wife's 2014 Plug-in Prius, which we bought new in 2014, has worse issues with alignment and panel gap than the 3 I picked up in May has, and similar issues with the interior fit and finish.
The Tesla Model 3 doesn't compete in the same sector as the Prius. It competes with Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, and Audi. It is a $50K to $60K car not a $25K to $30K car. The standards for fit and finish are very different.

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Originally Posted by roflwaffle View Post
Their product launch was certainly a failure compared to their own estimates, but at the same time I think they're currently delivering cars that meet and/or exceed the majority of industry standards.
Telsa doesn't come close to meeting industry quality standards. The quality on the Model S and Model X have been horrible. Their owners seem to tolerate the quality issues because Tesla is really good about fixing them and they like the product. That business model only works with very low volumes and when Tesla is the only company that sells a performance electric car. Both of those will change over the next few years as Model 3 volume ramps up and established automakers enter the market

Musk knows his quality is horrible. That is why he refuses to participate with companies that benchmark quality like JD Powers.

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provided of course someone's paycheck doesn't depend on their opinion
My paycheck isn't affected by Tesla. My company is doing great. Our car division is continuing a 5 year streak of monthly year over year sales increases. The truck division (which I work for) is book out into next year. (Tesla isn’t the only company with an order backlog)

Even if Tesla is successful in reaching their goal of 1 million cars per year they will still be a niche player in an industry that sells 81 million cars per year. Tesla has done a great job showing that there is a market for an electric car. It will be interesting to see if their demand holds up in the face of competition. I wish them luck.

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Old 07-23-2018, 02:57 PM   #485 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH View Post
The links roflwaffle provided deal with the battery and electronic controls.
Huh, what? Watch the Munro teardown.
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Originally Posted by JSH View Post
... fit an finish ...
The point is that a Bolt, or BMW 3 class, or whatever, even if their fit and trim be aligned to microscopic precision would still be just a Bolt or a BMW 3 class.
Yes, the Model 3 may be lacking that. It could, should, and likely will be better. Once production stabilizes this kind of tweaking will take place.
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Originally Posted by JSH View Post
What you don't seem to get is that I am focused on assembly process that takes place at the Fremont plant.
I avoid that bit as Roflwaffle already explained it.
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Old 07-23-2018, 03:43 PM   #486 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Huh, what? Watch the Munro teardown.
I watched it. (I also have access to a complete Model 3 teardown.)

What do YOU see as so special in the Munro video?
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Old 07-23-2018, 03:48 PM   #487 (permalink)
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Well they dealt with the whole car, not just the battery and electronic controls like you suggested.
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Old 07-24-2018, 03:26 AM   #488 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH View Post
From roflwaffle's report (and my coworker's car) Tesla has raised the level of fit an finish to that of average economy car (like the Prius) that cost tens of thousands less than what Tesla is charging for a Model 3. They are not to the level of fit and finish that is expected in the luxury segment. A short time ago, Tesla was shipping cars to customers that simply should not have left the factory. When a company is willing to sell cars with visible defects it makes me wonder corners they are cutting on parts that the customer can't see.
The fit and finish is IMO better than a Prius or similar (Insight/etc...). There were a similar number of small defects. The 3 has some seals that could be massaged into place better, and the Prius has some lumpy softex, but like I said, I could look hard at the majority of cars and find some issue. Along the same lines, all companies are willing to sell cars with visible defects. Tesla may sell more cars in the near future with defects if owners accept delivery, but that's more about Tesla trying to become more financially self-sufficient than anything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH View Post
The Tesla Model 3 doesn't compete in the same sector as the Prius. It competes with Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, and Audi. It is a $50K to $60K car not a $25K to $30K car. The standards for fit and finish are very different.
I never said the 3's interior competed with a $25k to $30k car. It's current interior is IMO competitive with other luxury cars with similar acceleration, handling, size, and so on. At the same time, it's very spartan and unique. If you like it, you like it. If you don't, you don't. I wish my Prius had the 3's interior. Offhand, the only thing I would take from the Prius is the HUD + being able to black out the center display.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH View Post
Telsa doesn't come close to meeting industry quality standards. The quality on the Model S and Model X have been horrible. Their owners seem to tolerate the quality issues because Tesla is really good about fixing them and they like the product. That business model only works with very low volumes and when Tesla is the only company that sells a performance electric car. Both of those will change over the next few years as Model 3 volume ramps up and established automakers enter the market

Musk knows his quality is horrible. That is why he refuses to participate with companies that benchmark quality like JD Powers.
I agree that the S and X have had issues with quality. From what I've read, the S and X have gotten better, with the S quality being substantially better. My wife and I have both test driven a Model S and rented an X for a few days. The 3's quality is substantially better than both, especially the X, although the X we rented was one of the first produced. The ride and NVH of the 3 in particular are second to none IMO, although the only luxury ICE I've driven was my wife's 2010 A3.

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Originally Posted by JSH View Post
My paycheck isn't affected by Tesla. My company is doing great. Our car division is continuing a 5 year streak of monthly year over year sales increases. The truck division (which I work for) is book out into next year. (Tesla isnít the only company with an order backlog)

Even if Tesla is successful in reaching their goal of 1 million cars per year they will still be a niche player in an industry that sells 81 million cars per year. Tesla has done a great job showing that there is a market for an electric car. It will be interesting to see if their demand holds up in the face of competition. I wish them luck.
That was directed at some select media outlets, not anyone in particular, and certainly not you. There's plenty of room in manufacturing, including auto manufacturing. Still, I wouldn't discount anyone, especially Tesla.
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Old 07-24-2018, 03:35 AM   #489 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JSH View Post
There is nothing in Roflwaffle's post that points to anything about the Tesla that makes it more difficult to build than a Bolt or Leaf. Yes, the performance is in a different league but it bolts together the same. I think the design is great (I would change some of the controls) and the performance is great. The product launch has been a failure.

What do you think is unique about the Model 3 that justifies the production problems that Tesla is seeing?
I think these are all separate things. On one hand, Tesla's certainly had their fair share of production problems that in some cases they asked for.

There are also companies that are pretty close to Tesla in some aspects of tech/development. For instance, Renault and one other large auto manufacturer are also using INL's AEM. GM's Super Cruise is the best at lane keeping when it can be used, Toyota's damn good at power electronics, Volvo's good with safety, etc...

At the same time, there isn't any manufacturer I'm aware of that's overall close to Tesla. That'll change if the 3 does as well as I think/hope it'll do and everyone starts investing more in R&D and EVs, but for now Tesla's doing very well, especially for a Silicon valley company with little experience mass producing vehicles.
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Old 07-24-2018, 03:57 PM   #490 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roflwaffle View Post
I never said the 3's interior competed with a $25k to $30k car. It's current interior is IMO competitive with other luxury cars with similar acceleration, handling, size, and so on. At the same time, it's very spartan and unique. If you like it, you like it. If you don't, you don't. I wish my Prius had the 3's interior. Offhand, the only thing I would take from the Prius is the HUD + being able to black out the center display.
The control interface is a completely different issue. I agree some might like it. I personally hate it. (Touchscreens just aren't a good interface for cars in my opinion and gauges should be in front of the driver)

10 years ago I worked for Delphi supplying instrument panels to the Mercedes SUV plant in Alabama. The instrument panel in my co-workers Model 3 that was delivered in July would have been rejected for more than a half dozen reasons using 10 year old levels of fit and finish standards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roflwaffle View Post
I agree that the S and X have had issues with quality. From what I've read, the S and X have gotten better, with the S quality being substantially better. My wife and I have both test driven a Model S and rented an X for a few days. The 3's quality is substantially better than both, especially the X, although the X we rented was one of the first produced. The ride and NVH of the 3 in particular are second to none IMO, although the only luxury ICE I've driven was my wife's 2010 A3.
When I say quality I mean industry metrics like problems per 100 vehicles. It has nothing to do with driving experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roflwaffle View Post
At the same time, there isn't any manufacturer I'm aware of that's overall close to Tesla. That'll change if the 3 does as well as I think/hope it'll do and everyone starts investing more in R&D and EVs, but for now Tesla's doing very well, especially for a Silicon valley company with little experience mass producing vehicles.
The investment is already being made. You will get long range EVs from major manufacturers in the next 1-2 years. The Jaguar was just release, and Audi, Mercedes, and Porsche will be following shortly. This will be Tesla's true test. Will their sales remain when a customer can buy a similar vehicle from established manufacturers like the ones listed above. Time will tell.

Your last sentence is the source of my frustration with Tesla. There is a huge body of knowledge on how to manufacture a car. Yes, it is difficult but dozens of companies do it on a daily basis. I know some people that have gone to work for Tesla and they are smart people that know their stuff. That is why it is so frustrating to see how badly Tesla did with the Model 3 launch.

Tesla's EV technology combined with a manufacture that knows how to build cars would be something to see.


Last edited by JSH; 07-24-2018 at 04:11 PM..
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