"The Volt" May BE SCRAPPED!- NEVER BUILT!!

[roflwaffle]

It only has to have a mechanical path to the wheels to be parallel AFAIK.

[tjts1]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

Hi,
How does a 750cc 2-cylinder "generator set" work as part of a parallel hybrid?

Why is the 'generator' mechanically connected to a 4 speed automatic transmission?

By this picture, its obvious that this is a parallel hybrid running through the stock automatic transmission. And electric motor doesn't need a 4 or 5 speed transmission. It produces its maximum torque from zero RPM. At most you use a reduction box which already exists in the rear differential. I think its a brilliant setup but its obviously a parallel hybrid.

[Christ]

Originally Posted by tjts1

Why is the 'generator' mechanically connected to a 4 speed automatic transmission?

By this picture, its obvious that this is a parallel hybrid running through the stock automatic transmission. I think its a brilliant setup but its not a series hybrid.

Not to interject, because I have no idea about it, but how can we tell that the center piece between the ICE and the transmission isn't really a generator on one side, and a motor on the other side, joined at the ends, with no mechanical connection between them?

You can see a flange connection between the two pieces of shiny goodness in those pics, so it's possible.

[theunchosen]

Tjts, what is a series hybrid?

In every other sense that I know of the word being used (resistors in series) it exclusively means in line with(along the direction of motion, in the direction of current, lined up with).

Whereas Parrallel means two separate lines of contact. Realistically a PH ought to have two drive trains that either meet at a mutual point downstream from where the motion is created.

The Insight original with IMA was a series hybrid. The issue is not that we are using a new buzzword... the issue is someone who is somewhat clueless about etymology came along and pretended to invent something and it became a buzzword.

Original insight was a series. I believe the Prius is a true parrallel(I could very probably be wrong) because the electric motor operates either through a transax, or on a separate axle. I don't bear any interest in the Prius if you can't tell ^_^.

Back to the recent topic at hand, The volt may have a few hundred built in the long run. I can almost certainly promise you it will not see the light of mass production though. As I have already stated the niche market that this car is designed for is very small... and very picky. They most likely are not going to get over the Badge Snobbery and trade in a lex, merc, or beamer for a bowtie.

Also... Nobody ever said specifically that all those jobs that are being retooled are really for the volt we have all been beaten senseless about. I am fairly willing to bet they dump every scrap of hybrid about the car and mass produce a small gasser as a smaller luxury car for around 25K. That price range would put it as a step up from the Impala with superior gas mileage(IT would just have to get around 30 to beat it out). The mid-sized luxury FE friendly car market is infinitely bigger than the 4 people who are going to buy a Volt for 40K....

[tjts1]

Originally Posted by Christ

Not to interject, because I have no idea about it, but how can we tell that the center piece between the ICE and the transmission isn't really a generator on one side, and a motor on the other side, joined at the ends, with no mechanical connection between them?

If you were building a series hybrid, you would get rid of the most inefficient part of the whole drive train: the transmission. The electric motor can run from 0-10k rpm and stay there all day. It can run backwards and forward. You don't even need a clutch or torque converter. It has more than enough torque to get the car moving through the stock reduction gear in the differential. The only reason you would need the automatic transmission is if you need to transmit the mechanical power of the internal combustion engine to the wheels.

[Christ]

Originally Posted by tjts1

If you were building a series hybrid, you would get rid of the most inefficient part of the whole drive train: the transmission. The electric motor can run from 0-10k rpm and stay there all day. It can run backwards and forward. You don't even need a clutch or torque converter. It has more than enough torque to get the car moving through the stock reduction gear in the differential. The only reason you would need the automatic transmission if you need to transmit the mechanical power of the internal combustion engine to the wheels.

Not all electric motors can do that, though. I do agree that they don't really need the gearing of the transmission, but then again, they're never very efficient in the extreme ranges, either.

Then a third, You can't really tell that the transmission is stock, re-geared, or otherwise.

Sure, it's probably safe to assume that you're correct in thinking that it's engine/gen/motor/trans in a line (which, by definition, is actually in series), but you still can't prove it. Kind of hawking a point that you can't back up, isn't it?

[tjts1]

On their web site they have 1 image of what looks like a series hybrid drivetrain.

You can see the ICE hooked up to a very long generator and another electric motor next to it. That is definitely a series hybrid. But I don't see how they fit bot the drive motor and the generator in the space between the AT transmission and ICE in the previous picture. Yes, there is a big flange in the middle and we can only guess whats inside. But there is no reason to to line up the ICE and the transmission in this way to create a long, cumbersome package unless you were trying to mechanically link them together.
The automatic transmission is vastly less efficient than an electric motor running far outside its ideal RPM range. The efficiency curve of an electric motor is relatively constant throughout out the RPM range and only varies with load.

[Jammer]

theunchosen: To use your choose of words (closely) I can most certainly say that The Volt WILL see mass Production in greater numbers than a few hundred. How many more? Hard to guess for me.. Please keep in mind I am the original skeptic about The Volt. I am the one that started this thread saying the Volt would not be produced, for the most part. I had my reasons then, as I do now.

I am only 44 years old, but I have spent my entire life time since as far back as I can remember hearing from General Motors workers and retirees talking about what is going on inside GM. Also I read the UAW paper every month, for what it's worth. Not once, not a single time has GM EVER been able to keep a secret from anyone longer than 5 minutes. Yes I would like to see The Volt be the dream car that brings Americans back to buying their own products, let alone customer's in other countries. (BTW: Rumor has it that people in China LOVE Buicks!)- But they may still pull a rabbit out giving how much is at stake now.

GM is starting plans as we converse right now to build The Volt. And based on the job transfers they are planing on building more than a couple hundred; that would not even be enough to transfer the workers. So despite what most of us think and say here, unless GM/Chevy is engaged in a giant stunt, they ARE starting to draw up plans and sending out letters to workers telling them where to get ready to be transferred too in order to to start re-tooling and building The Volt. These things are very hard to keep secret. When I lived in Flint we sometimes knew what car parts to what cars were being designated to certain plants well over a year before the re-tooling. But, one never knows, maybe with all of the bad stuff GM has gone through just maybe they learned something.... maybe.

My point is, GM/Chevy does not seem to be acting as the good members in this thread have. They seem to really believe they can sell some of these cars. However, based on earlier statements it would seem they are also trying to but the damper on too much speculation, which is exactly what myself and many of us are doing here. Only time will really tell.

To play the other side: I have had some serious doubts about this car myself. However, this is based on what we are presently being told about it (and the mules they show). If there is any chance they can keep a secret from the masses, maybe The Volt wont cost so much. Maybe the mules on video will not be as much like the production car. We just will not know for sure until they start up the production line, and that is not due until next summer 2010. We should have a good idea after a couple months of sales as too if GM laid another egg or not. What the competition has to show will matter as well.

So, I am on the fence. If they present The Volt as being another one of the ten mules a month they have been building, and it has a price above $40,000 and seats 4 as a compact with the specs as we now understand them, then I might just agree with you- Yeah, it may not sell very well if they go that way. But until they start producing these cars we can be sure of nothing. With any luck just maybe GM can keep a secret or two for the first time in their history. Only time will tell.

I think this is one car that will either SINK or SWIM. I have my own personal doubts it can fly as a car with low sales. They really need a winner, that's for sure.

[theunchosen]

Jammer I am willing to admit the possibility that he volt will see mass production.

In a logical world it would not. I am going to pretend this is a logical world... because if its not then my reasons for going to work every day go out the window.

With the info available most economists could project that either A.) GM goes belly up trying to get to the front of the EV race or B.) they are using it to corner some new funding from the limitless pit.

If we are honest with ourselves this car really doesn't stand a chance in any market you chose to look at(luxury, mid-sized sedan, sport sedan, eco-box, luxury eco-box, sport eco-box). In all seriousness the expensive end of the PH/EV market is devoured by Tesla and Aptera eats up the market share for the less expensive with Toyota and Honda gobbling up the mainstream hybrid markets for half the price. BMW and Merc both have PH power plants coming soon that will utterly disgrace the info thats already out on the volt.

That said... in a logical world no one would try and build this half-assed project, sell it for that price, against that competition...

[Jammer]

All I am saying is I fear we may be killing off a car before it ever gets a chance to be sold. Frankly I do not think GM will get any more chances from the Governments. They have to get-er-done or die trying. Things sure have changed over the years. When I was about 20 I read the headlines on The Flint Journal and it spoke in large bold letters that 250,000 workers would be laid off due to plant closings. Nowadays they speak of auto workers in batches of a few hundred hear and there. In the old days they spoke of hundreds of thousands of workers. It seems almost like there already dead sometimes. The only thing that makes me feel otherwise is the fact we have tons of Chevys on the roads here, and in much of the mid-west. I take it it is nothing like that in the rest of the country.

Oh, for those that still trust Consumer Reports, I read something on Google News that claimed a FORD had beat Honda and Toyota for reliability. It also claimed that the GM cars were too new to be included in the same test.