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Old 03-13-2018, 12:14 PM   #1081 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by niky View Post
Police aren't around 24/7. And in some parts of the world, the police are less than useless against those with the money to igore the law.

And yet somehow, a vast majority of us manage to treat each other with dignity and respect.
I'll point out here that police aren't first responders, they are last responders. We must self-police to some degree to maintain order because we are the only ones present in every situation we find ourselves.

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Originally Posted by All Darc View Post
Japan and Finland have very educated people, and I remamber about a lot of nice cooperation after tsunami event in Japan

...to create a good person requires a lot of work. To create a bad person it take by itself, nature, just let on, let it roll...

People think children are pure. They are not. They are innocent, that's different. Children are a example of human nature. Take teens, are even worse, it's nature with out of controll sexual isntints leading to agressive behavior and even some sadic behavior.
Japan's cooperation is not due to education, it's due to different cultural values that place community above individual. You even address individuals by their family name because that is their identity, part of a larger unit. Since the individual is de-emphasised, there is more prosocial behavior. The downside of this is that people who don't feel they contribute to the betterment of their group feel ashamed and depressed. Japan has higher rates of suicide than murder. In that culture, it is more honorable to die than to live on in disgrace.

A perfect society may very well be a blend of Japanese values of family and community, and US values of individual worth and freedom. Having a balanced perspective of finding value as both an individual and as part of a community protects against both self-loathing and anger towards society.

My observation is that life is a process of letting go of self-centeredness. We all enter the world complete psychopaths with no regard or concept of others, and to varying degrees grow to value the wellbeing of others.

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Old 03-13-2018, 01:01 PM   #1082 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by All Darc
But in worldwide terms it's a minority of world.
Take south states of USA and take my country (Brazil). With no police they broke stores and get what they want.
Maybe. In New Orleans, down in the flood, the government called out the National Guard on looters. As was reported in the media. But when Houston had it's flood, there were anarchist responders called the Cajun Navy that arrived on their own dime, to help Texans, first.

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The Cajun Navy are informal ad-hoc volunteer groups comprising private boat owners who assist in search and rescue efforts in Louisiana and adjacent areas. These groups were formed in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina and reactivated in the aftermaths of the 2016 Louisiana floods and Hurricane Harvey. They are credited with rescuing thousands of citizens during those disasters.
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Originally Posted by redpoint5
A perfect society may very well be a blend of Japanese values of family and community, and US values of individual worth and freedom. Having a balanced perspective of finding value as both an individual and as part of a community protects against both self-loathing and anger towards society.

IMHO both Japan and Russia are culturally equals of the USofA. Japan has anime and Russia has non-GMO agriculture.

Quote:
Tribes have their own laws and rules and punishments.
According to Timothy Leary the human brain has eight circuits. Four terrestrial and four extra-terrestrial. The four terrestrial circuits light up in this order: Self — Family — Tribe — Nation-state.

Quote:
Leary uses the eight circuits along with recapitulation theory to explain the evolution of the human species, the personal development of an individual, and the biological evolution of all life.
....
1 The Eight Circuits

1.1 1. (Leary)The vegetative-invertebrate circuit (Wilson)The oral bio-survival circuit[14][15][16]
1.2 2. (Leary)The emotional-locomotion circuit (Wilson)The anal territorial circuit[18][19]
1.3 3. (Leary)The laryngeal-manual symbolic circuit (Wilson)The semantic time-binding circuit[24][25]
1.4 4. (Leary)The socio-sexual domestication circuit (Wilson)The socio-sexual circuit[26][27]

Each circuit listed has each name from Leary's book "Exo-Psychology" after the preface,[11][12] and Wilson's book "Quantum Psychology" pgs.196-201.[1
It's why you don't talk to a pre-schooler about fiscal policy.
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Old 03-13-2018, 03:25 PM   #1083 (permalink)
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Maybe. In New Orleans, down in the flood, the government called out the National Guard on looters. As was reported in the media.
The National Guard, used domestically, is just another part of your friendly neighborhood state government. All of us down there were on State Active Duty. Our Governors offered assistance to the local Governors. The various state Guard staffs coordinated overall operations, but "Big Army" was not running the show. I was being paid by New Hampshire, attached to (IIRC) Task Force Arkansas (NH is tiny), operating under the authority of the Governor of Louisiana.

Racist, overzealous neighborhood watch types might shoot you for visiting your dad and having skittles in your pocket (while black). But the troops have morals just like regular people. My unit made it through a year with rules of engagement so loose that we could kill anyone we felt like as long as we "perceived hostile intent" on the part of the dead guy. We were shooters and we went out every day looking for someone to kill. But none of the folks we ran into were actual bad guys, except the ones inside our base. A few months after we got back, they sent us down for Katrina. Yes, we were loaded. No, I don't remember what our exact ROE were because it didn't matter. Who in their right mind is going to kill someone that might reduce Best Buy's marginal profit this quarter by stealing a TV that they can't use (no power) and has already been written off by the company? We were armed, but we weren't looking for people to shoot.

We had individuals riding along with cops to bulk up their numbers, we had individuals with radios posted at major intersections, we had squads patrolling neighborhoods. My squad occupied an abandoned medical center. Regular society had taken a big hit and wasn't working. We were a self contained bit of outside society that could demonstrate that overall society hadn't collapsed, distribute water and evacuate people who needed medical attention. All most people needed was a bit of hope until things got back up and running.

But they didn't send anyone in, except the appropriate state governments. The next month we had floods in western NH. We didn't need people from other states and we left the weapons at the armory, but it was basically the same thing. I had two guys with me, manning an intersection.
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Old 03-13-2018, 03:58 PM   #1084 (permalink)
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Very good point !

When I refer about education I should also clear that it's also the values of a society, and not just school degree. I define education as learning and values, maybe more values than degree.

Japan it's another world, the oposite of my country. I just don't understand that why they are so much in pro of comunity and so cold to a individual, who is part of comunity. I heard they don't use to help a individual, like thinking a individual must make it by their own.
USA also needs a bit of JFK remark : "Ask what you can do for your country.." But country as a comunity, and not blind "licking of a flag"

Maybe the Japanese cultural values start during some emperor's idea. Before end of WWII Japan's emperor was saw like a good by japanese people.
This value it's a lot linked to honor and feart of shame and fear of dishonor, maybe more than a true empathy feeling.
Still a decades ago Japan was very sexist against women, and very aged couples keeped the habit of women walk two steps behind her husband, as gesture of respect.

So it's difficult to find a culture where a nice thing it's linked to rational philosophic thinking, instead of brain conditioning and fear&proud. The brain conditioning can work for something nice or for useless crap. For example, other countries, the most violent ones, have honor linked to sexual "values". My country is one of them, and the result it's a disgrace and violence.

And people will think I'm eugenist, but genes have effects in everything. Som,eone can be fat or slin, if eat more or less, but genes have their influence. Empathy it's pain, we feel some pain with someone else suffering. This can be modulated by culture, education, recognise of other people as similar, but genes also have some influence.
I believe some people have more genetic predisposition for this "pain for other", and other have less predisposition. And other have no empathy at all, like sociopaths.
Of course genes for good do not ensure a baby will be good, but can help. ANd anyway, there is the famous quote : "Some of the msot terrible things were was made with the best intentions."

Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
I'll point out here that police aren't first responders, they are last responders. We must self-police to some degree to maintain order because we are the only ones present in every situation we find ourselves.



Japan's cooperation is not due to education, it's due to different cultural values that place community above individual. You even address individuals by their family name because that is their identity, part of a larger unit. Since the individual is de-emphasised, there is more prosocial behavior. The downside of this is that people who don't feel they contribute to the betterment of their group feel ashamed and depressed. Japan has higher rates of suicide than murder. In that culture, it is more honorable to die than to live on in disgrace.

A perfect society may very well be a blend of Japanese values of family and community, and US values of individual worth and freedom. Having a balanced perspective of finding value as both an individual and as part of a community protects against both self-loathing and anger towards society.

My observation is that life is a process of letting go of self-centeredness. We all enter the world complete psychopaths with no regard or concept of others, and to varying degrees grow to value the wellbeing of others.
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Old 03-13-2018, 04:54 PM   #1085 (permalink)
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Fat Charlie — Thanks. I'm glad I got that right. Neighbor[states] helping neighbor[states]. IIRC the Federal response was:


https://www.politico.com/gallery/201...93-006766.html

Quote:
So it's difficult to find a culture where a nice thing it's linked to rational philosophic thinking, instead of brain conditioning and fear&proud. The brain conditioning can work for something nice or for useless crap.
The culture you are looking for is the world's largest functioning anarchy. It's called Internet.

Japan is not a monolith. A Beginner's Guide To Tokyo Their culture is adept at picking and choosing innovations that are consistent with their values, much like the Amish. Individuality is on parade on Harajuku Street.

I find evidence of empathy for foreign cultures in, for instance, Girls Und Panzer. Their cultural foibles, food, music, and ....tanks and tank tactics.

Multicultural frenemies on a gigantic aircraft carrier.
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Old 03-13-2018, 04:56 PM   #1086 (permalink)
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Japan it's another world, the oposite of my country. I just don't understand that why they are so much in pro of comunity and so cold to a individual, who is part of comunity. I heard they don't use to help a individual, like thinking a individual must make it by their own.
USA also needs a bit of JFK remark : "Ask what you can do for your country.." But country as a comunity, and not blind "licking of a flag"

...genes have effects in everything. Empathy it's pain, we feel some pain with someone else suffering. This can be modulated by culture, education, recognise of other people as similar, but genes also have some influence.
To some degree, expecting an individual to solve their own problem is beneficial to that individual, so long as they eventually solve their problem. People tend to live up to the standards that are imposed upon them. Expect nothing from someone, and they are likely to achieve nothing. Expect everything, and they are likely to become frustrated and react negatively.

Yes, of course we are the products of both nature (genes) and environment (family, culture, society, friends). Just like athletic potential, we all have a certain mental/sympathy potential that can be nurtured or neglected. We may not be able to be the Michael Jordan of compassion, but we can at least train to not miss the hoop so often.
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Old 03-13-2018, 06:36 PM   #1087 (permalink)
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Old 03-13-2018, 06:45 PM   #1088 (permalink)
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https://www.theguardian.com/australi...ad-whale-video

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Old 03-13-2018, 07:31 PM   #1089 (permalink)
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Then there is this.

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Old 03-13-2018, 10:09 PM   #1090 (permalink)
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Thanks Frank, a golden oldie. Now to get it out of my head.

Is there a topic?
Just A Car Guy: meanwhile, in oil news "former California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger is planning to sue oil companies, alleging they are "knowingly killing people all over the world."
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“I don’t think there’s any difference: If you walk into a room and you know you’re going to kill someone, it’s first-degree murder; I think it’s the same thing with the oil companies,” the actor and former Republican governor of California said during a live recording of a Politico podcast.

Mr. Schwarzenegger said he’s already in talks with several private law firms in preparing a lawsuit.
[snip]
“We’re going to go after them, and we’re going to be in there like an Alabama tick,” he said. “Because to me, it’s absolutely irresponsible to know that your product is killing people and not have a warning label on it, like tobacco. Every gas station on it, every car should have a warning label on it, every product that has fossil fuels should have a warning label on it.”
Maybe it's something in their water?

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