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Old 08-14-2019, 03:23 PM   #6501 (permalink)
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socialist dictatorship

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Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
I'd argue the opposite, that it would be unkind to preemptively destroy in anticipation for possible future destruction.

We're all better off for having not nuked the Soviets preemptively.

Causing death and destruction now is not the answer to possibly stemming death and destruction in the future, especially when the specifics of future loss are so poorly understood, and the specifics of current loss relatively well understood.

I consider even severe death and destruction in the future due to climate change to be more acceptable than even slightly less severe death and destruction now at the hand of socialist dictatorship. We know the evil of socialist dictatorship, and would do well to steer a wide berth around it.
How did that ever enter the conversation?

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Old 08-14-2019, 03:50 PM   #6502 (permalink)
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Old 08-14-2019, 04:03 PM   #6503 (permalink)
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socialist dictatorship = Green New Deal. It's part of the discussion. Just like your permalink #6491

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Originally Posted by litesong
"don'T rump", making excuses for white nationalists who killed a woman in Charlottesville, said there were good people on both sides.....along with his other 10,000 plus lies.
Stop spreading lies. The 'Fine People' hoax is thoroughly debunked, and personally I don't think you can say (despite a possibly coerced confession) who was responsible for the death by gray Charger. That was after the death of Michael Hastings so any state level actor could have implemented it.
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Old 08-14-2019, 04:17 PM   #6504 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerohead View Post
How did that ever enter the conversation?
It wasn't recently discussed, but you have made reference to utilizing the military to seize control of citizens to enforce necessary means to address climate change. That might be on the more extreme end of your comments regarding what to do, with treating this like WWIII being among the more moderate of your comments.

Your implied contempt for Wallstreet also conveys contempt for capitalism/free markets, but perhaps I'm mis-reading you. It would be helpful if you clarified what specifically you think should happen, and how government would be structured to accomplish this, along with how business/commerce would be structured.

While I'm generally against socialist dictatorships and ideas which tilt toward them, I'm open to hearing the reasoning, any reasoning, to support any position.
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Old 08-14-2019, 04:29 PM   #6505 (permalink)
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While I'm generally against socialist dictatorships and ideas which tilt toward them, I'm open to hearing the reasoning, any reasoning, to support any position.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=you+might+be+an+anarchist+if
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Old 08-14-2019, 04:35 PM   #6506 (permalink)
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Green New Deal

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Originally Posted by freebeard View Post
socialist dictatorship = Green New Deal. It's part of the discussion. Just like your permalink #6491


Stop spreading lies. The 'Fine People' hoax is thoroughly debunked, and personally I don't think you can say (despite a possibly coerced confession) who was responsible for the death by gray Charger. That was after the death of Michael Hastings so any state level actor could have implemented it.
I tried to look at that,but couldn't deal with the irrational,emotionally-driven,hair-on-fire rhetoric.The parts about carbon mitigation that immediately stood out seemed kinda logical,but then they'd go off onto things which had nothing to do with climate change.
The mechanical engineer in me see's no technological barrier to a carbon-free economy,however,that's a really big issue for purveyors of fossil-fuels,of which I'm directly implicated,via inheritance of oil properties in Oklahoma,which belonged to my maternal grandfather,an oilman in Carter County.
Most everything I mentioned was done in the Republic,either in WW-I,or WW-II.The others would be logical addendums to policy,with a President like Ulysses S.Grant,or Abraham Lincoln,whom understood arithmetic.
Prosecuting a war,whether 'hot',or economic,requires a certain pragmatism,which isn't necessarily politically correct.The US NAVY's shelling of New York City probably wasn't that popular with New Yorkers,but was deemed a necessity when it happened.Ditto for nationalizations,suspension of civil rights,vigilante raids on citizens,etc..That's all part of statecraft.
A declaration of war on climate change might involve some,or all of the things I've mentioned.If you can't sleep with a pea under your mattress,you probably wouldn't like being in a country in a real war.These are issues for people who would have to wear the big boy pants.
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Old 08-14-2019, 05:22 PM   #6507 (permalink)
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The mechanical engineer in me see's no technological barrier to a carbon-free economy,however,that's a really big issue for purveyors of fossil-fuels,of which I'm directly implicated,via inheritance of oil properties in Oklahoma
Don't be too hard on yourself.

The barrier isn't technological so much as the collective mindset and intentions of people acting in large masses. And that is driven by, as you say, corporate personhood and money as speech. My favorite counter-examples lately are the Fisher Industries demonstration project in El Paso and the flash mob that converged on Baltimore and hauled away 14 tons of trash.

I think a lot of people get it, but they're locked into choices that are hard to undo. Like me and that Superbeetle.
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Old 08-14-2019, 05:34 PM   #6508 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerohead View Post
Again,you'll better argue your case if you provide us with the prima facie evidence.
Who,what,when ,where,why,and who paid for it.
It's all easily searchable on anything but google, maybe try observer-expectancy effect also called the observer-expectancy effect.
I like how people claim to be so science smart but then claim to know nothing about this aspect of science.

Even if the climate gates and scientific misconduct claims are fiction we know funding bias exists.

The agw religion is the Titanic and the believers just bailing water over the side.
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Old 08-14-2019, 05:43 PM   #6509 (permalink)
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Wall St.

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Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
It wasn't recently discussed, but you have made reference to utilizing the military to seize control of citizens to enforce necessary means to address climate change. That might be on the more extreme end of your comments regarding what to do, with treating this like WWIII being among the more moderate of your comments.

Your implied contempt for Wallstreet also conveys contempt for capitalism/free markets, but perhaps I'm mis-reading you. It would be helpful if you clarified what specifically you think should happen, and how government would be structured to accomplish this, along with how business/commerce would be structured.

While I'm generally against socialist dictatorships and ideas which tilt toward them, I'm open to hearing the reasoning, any reasoning, to support any position.
*'The business of America is business.' President Calvin Coolidge
*'Money not morality is the principle commerce of civilized nations.' President Thomas Jefferson
*'The cornerstone of U.S.Policy isn't so much to make (countries) safe for democracy as it is to make them safe for American private corporations.' President Dwight D. Eisenhower
*Realistically,all wars have been for economic reasons.To make them politically pallatable,ideological issues have always been involved.Any possible future war will undoubtably conform to historical precedent.' George Kennan,de-classified,U.S.NAVY document,Congressional Record,April 5,1947.
*'Do you want to know the cause of war? It is capitalism,greed,the dirty hunger for dollars.Take away the capitalist and you sweep war from the earth. Henry Ford,Detroit News,1918 (WW-I)
*'A vote in the U.S.Senate is of such great effect and influence that any person who is willing to sell his soul can have handsome financing for his campaigns.' U.S.Senator Albert Gore,(D) Tennessee,1954.
*'You don't want to hurt the folks who brought you to the dance.' U.S.Senator,Pat Roberts
*'We have given you a republic sir,if you can keep it.' Benjamin Franklin,Constitutional Convention,1787.
*'The liberty of the press is essential to the security of the state.' John Adams.
*'Knowledge will forever govern ignorance,and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives.A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it is but a prologue to a farce or tragedy,or both.' James Madison.
*'If a nation expects to be ignorant and free,it expects what never was and never will be...The people cannot be safe without information.Where the press is free,and every man able to read,all is safe.' Thomas Jefferson.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
*The US Constitution was signed in 1787.
*The 14th Amendment didn't exist until 1868,long after all our founding fathers were dead.
*Corporate 'personhood' was not recognized until 1886,99-years after the Constitution.
*American businessmen 'claim Adam Smith as theirs.
*Adam Smith was for free markets.
*Adam Smith was never for capitalism.
*Adam Smith was never for Republics and was never a 'Republican.'
*Adam smith never ran a business.
*Someone literally died,and he was left in charge.
*Adam Smith was not a Christian.
*Adam smith hung out with atheists.
*Capitalism has nothing to do with the United States.
*'[Corporations] have declared war,negotiated peace,reduced courts,legislatures,and sovereign states to an unequalled obedience to their will.' Charles Francis Adams
My father flew a desk in the US ARMY Air Force,Pacific Theater, WW-II.He saw the 'economics' of warfare as a course of his official work.After my return from combat in 1972,we began man-to man discussions of the realities of the 'military industrial complex'.I'd personally pumped enough J-P4 and 115-145 AVGAS to float a battleship.While we were killing godless commies,Exxon was prospecting for oil in the South China Sea.I befriended a Shell Oil Company employee,who made $50,000 US,tax-free as long as he didn't take vacation in the USA.This was 1971.There are many personal experiences I've had which have tempered my enthusiasm for Wall St.Recently,7-venture capitalists who sodomized me at photobucket.
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Old 08-14-2019, 06:10 PM   #6510 (permalink)
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claim

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It's all easily searchable on anything but google, maybe try observer-expectancy effect also called the observer-expectancy effect.
I like how people claim to be so science smart but then claim to know nothing about this aspect of science.

Even if the climate gates and scientific misconduct claims are fiction we know funding bias exists.

The agw religion is the Titanic and the believers just bailing water over the side.
I have seen articles in Science and Nature regarding professional misconduct.You don't see a lot of it.
It wouldn't surprise me if some have abused the system.People are people.
I have some examples of evidence of funding bias in the climate skeptic/contrarian/denier community,involving fake-science and fossil-fuel funding.
So maybe I'm not completely science dumb.
I GOOGLED observer expectancy effect.Seems like it wouldn't be germane to climate science.I don't know how one would influence Earth over the course of an experiment, like a 3-D atmospheric,terrestrial,ocean,-coupled,general circulation model.All one could do is compare observation data the model's output, and see if there was any agreement or not.It's not like quantum physics,where the very act of observation can actually alter what you're observing.

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