The climate change consensus extends beyond climate scientists

[oil pan 4]

But now you need a machinist who can do programming to run it. But once you get it going right it will make a lot of identical parts really fast.

[sendler]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

But now you need a machinist who can do programming to run it. But once you get it going right it will make a lot of identical parts really fast.

The machine just took 10 high paid jobs

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by sendler

Perfect example of machines displacing skilled human workers. One CNC machine is now doing the work that used to be done by several machinists. Automation displaces human workers. Creating a surplus of labor. Which places downward pressure on the leverage that the remaining pool of workers has in order to demand a higher wage. Overpopulation and globalization does the same thing by shifting production to a location where people literally "will work for food". Resulting in the average world labor pool experiencing downward pressure on wages. The "owners" of the factory take an even greater share of the profits and the workers get less pay with less leverage to demand a raise.

This is all very basic free market capitalism and should be easy to understand by anyone.

You're ignoring the rest of the capitalism story in order to maintain an ideological belief about the system, namely that even the lowest people in the workforce benefit from it. Those working for small wages in 3rd world countries make a little more than necessary to eat, creating a small amount of surplus than what is absolutely necessary to survive, which is better than what they had before.

It's true that capitalism seeks the lowest wage labor market that can adequately accomplish the production goals. Those markets over time increase in prosperity and wages rise also. So, the average world labor pool isn't experiencing downward pressure on wages due to capitalism, but increasing wages.

Can you identify when on this graph China made economic reforms to include capitalistic business practices?



The idea that capitalism pays the lowest wage it can and that is somehow unjust and evil is garbage. What other way is there to efficiently allocate labor resources? It's like being mad that people seek the best prices they can on goods they purchase. Should they be looking to spend as much as they can on goods and services? Are they evil for trying to maximize the resources they have? Is it unfair?

Your other point about automation eliminating jobs, especially blue collar jobs, is the interesting idea. That is the problem as technology shifts labor towards higher cognitive tasks and away from lower ones. Technology can grow by leaps and bounds, but human intellectual capacity can't, or at least not without the help of technology (genetic engineering). What to do about people who cannot find meaningful work is a very serious problem.

I have firsthand experience what happens when you warehouse people, providing all their basic necessities and not giving them a chance to participate in society; it's called prison. A universal basic income might solve the problem of how to feed people that aren't working, but it doesn't solve the problem of finding meaning in life. They essentially become prisoners passing time until they kick off.

Providing the economic needs of life for those at the lowest strata is only half the problem, and in my view, the less important half. Meaning and belonging is more important because it makes the suffering of life worthwhile, and we will all suffer tremendously no matter what economic strata we find ourselves in.

[sendler]

Your chart makes my point. Let's consider. The only way overall world labor wage has increased is with world economic growth and from the fact that until very recently, subsistence farmers earned essentially zero dollars. But infinite growth cannot continue on a finite planet. The other factor in increasing GDP per capita in emerging countries is due to a shift of labor wages from the countries that previously had the jobs, to the new labor markets where wages are cheaper. The previous job holders have given their manufacturing jobs to the developing countries and are now forced to accept a lower pay standard due to the higher competition for whatever jobs (bartenders and waitresses) remain. The corporations and owners of production can lower their pricing somewhat to stay competitive with each other, but the other obvious result if you look at the executive earnings charts is that they are in a position to also keep more of the profits and share less with the workers since the increased globalized labor pool of formerly subsistence farmers, now turned workers, has created an over supply of workers. And the advent of increased automation has created an over supply of workers.

[freebeard]

Nah. I'm sorry the quote came out wrong. But, the wrong quote did not void my text. The power of the ILWU cannot be voided, whether you want to admit your Wobbbly quote, was capitalist blasphemy, or not.

Sorry is good, but but negates it. So, sorry not sorry?

Blasphemy?

Originally Posted by myself

Going a bit Wobbbly there?

That's interrogative not declarative. Let it go, that's 30 posts back now.

[redpoint5]

"Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried..." - Churchill

Same thing with Capitalism; it's an imperfect system with imperfect laborers and executives, regulated by imperfect politicians, and supported by imperfect consumers.

We both agree that capitalism does tend to be at odds with the goal of resource conservation. Massive Socialism or implementation of Communism would achieve the goal of reducing resource consumption because it would severely stifle the economy in general.

I'm sure there's a better scheme out there, but I have no idea what it is.

I tend to believe technology will solve greater and greater problems. Resource consumption is only a problem because we lack the knowhow to turn material A into material B, or do so affordably. That problem will likely be more solvable when we can harness the vast amounts of energy that are just outside our abilities to utilize at a large scale, and affordably. There's a chance that we never harness energy as dense and cheap as fossil fuels, but I think that's a low probability.

[litesong]

Originally Posted by freebeard

Let it go, that's 30 posts back now.

You didn't mind going 100 years back, to give a capitalist slant on history. Again, sorry the quote went awry.

[litesong]

Originally Posted by freebeard

Blasphemy?.....That's interrogative not declarative.

Nah! Lots of people "question" things, & mean them to be rhetorical. Your rhetorical question was declarative... & capitalist blasphemy, justifying capitalist violent tactics of injury, death & starvation.

[freebeard]

Your rhetorical question was declarative... & capitalist blasphemy, justifying capitalist violent tactics of injury, death & starvation.

Yikes! You've really gone off the deep end. I've already explained that I had confused Woodmen of the World with your nemesis.

Would you mess with these guys?

http://radiocoloradocollege.org/2012...-of-the-world/

I haven't looked into this much but my reading of a 'fraternal order' is 'anarchists'.

Joseph Cullen Root was responsible for the founding of no less than four fraternal orders...

It was reported that Root's idea for "Woodmen" came from a speech he heard about woodsmen clearing away forests to provide shelter for their families. Others speculated that Root visualized himself as the root that would grow into a shelter, protecting members from financial disaster.

The first Woodmen certificates were issued from the home of John T. Yates, who was named Sovereign Clerk. The Society had no office until space was donated rent-free for six months by the owner of the Sheely Block at 15th & Howard Streets in Omaha.

The first certificate of membership ...

The first death claim paid was...

Woodmen's first financial statement, dated December 31, 1891, listed receipts of $59,753.31 and disbursements of $58,876.22, with a balance on hand of only $877.09. By 1900, the Society had $219 million of life insurance in force.

Woodmen continued to grow throughout the Depression era, and on its 50th anniversary in 1941, showed $364 million of life insurance in force.

...also — two post in four minutes? Use the Edit button, the post count [rate] is high enough as it is.

edit:
California can't keep it's lights on because of too much wind power?

[litesong]

Originally Posted by freebeard

California can't keep it's lights on because of too much wind power?

Yeah, they used the same argument up here in Washington state, only for a different reason. Our integrated wind & hydro power (the best integration of various power sources), got the investors in wind power to clacking. Our dams were getting high because of good rainfall, so the power companies began using more hydro-power to keep the waters lower behind the dams. The wind investors began complaining they weren't making enough money, because the wind power wasn't being used. It was all temporary, but the rich people got to squawk about their money.

It's so funny. First, the AGW deniers said wind power would never produce more power than 1% of need. Second, wind turbines are so efficient at producing power, wind investors say use more power..... to make us rich.

It's NOT coincidence that AGW deniers & rich people clack the same way.